<p>I guess I am very much like your parents, a realist. My daughter was very involved in MT since she was 7 years old. Since high school I have made it very clear that MT is a hobby and that we will not pay college fees for a degree that has little chance of bringing in the bacon later. Have you seen how many people post on this site regarding MT majors? How many jobs do you think are out there? I believe you have about a 1% chance of getting a job in performance. I saw the perfect tee shirt at Macy’s " I am an actress, may I take your order?" Hang around at Ellen’s Stardust Diner and see all the MT majors who are employed as singing waitstaff waiting for their break. Maybe your folks don’t want to finance 4 years of college so you can waitress and chase a dream when you are finished.</p>
<p>alf56, with all due respect, I think that is a very myopic view. There is often a misconception that a BFA program somehow does not prepare a student for post college life as well as a BA degree in another major. That is simply not accurate. First, let’s put the typical undergrad BA degree in perspective. With very few exceptions, most BA degrees do not prepare a student to enter the work world with the credentials to get a job in their major field. BA degrees typically provide a student with the credentials to get into a grad program which is then the doorway to a career and long term employment. BFA degrees, while intended to be a professional degree to prepare a student to enter the performing profession, also have legitimacy and credibility as degrees that can prepare a student to pursue a grad degree in another area. There are loads of students with BFAs in theatre who decide to pursue grad degrees in other areas and are very competitive candidates. I personally know some who concluded that performing wasn’t for them and decided to go to law school. Their BFAs were in no way an impediment and were viewed by the law schools as every bit as legitimate as a BA in another major.</p>
<p>In this regard, there is often the erroneous belief that all a BFA program consists of is studio work. To the contrary, there is legitimate academic work that occurs routinely. The volume of literature that is read in the form of plays and other dramatic works rivals the reading load of an english major. Researching the history, cultural contexts and societal forces at play during the periods in which dramatic works were written or in which they take place is as legitimate an academic pursuit as much as traditional courses in history, sociology and cultural studies. Engaging in script analysis to understand the motivations and relationships of characters is a study in psychology, interpersonal relationships and the dynamics of communication. Add to it that almost all BFA programs require an exposure to liberal arts classes. The reality is that a BFA program in theatre requires legitimate scholarship.</p>
<p>Moreover, a BFA program requires the development of skill sets that are very marketable in the real world. Creativity, working collaboratively, the ability to handle the demands of complex projects, the discipline to work very long hours are all qualities that employers seek. There are specific skills acquired through studio work and performing - confidence, the ability to communicate, the ability to project oneself to meet the requirements of the circumstances - that have very real value in the work world.</p>
<p>The MT majors you characterized at Ellen’s Stardust Diner as waiting on tables while they wait for “their break” hardly represent the scope of opportunities for MT students. There are choices that MT students make ranging from the type of performing they want to do, where they want to do it or if they want to pursue performing at all. There are all sorts of job opportunities ranging from waiting tables while pursuing auditions to finding other employment that draws on the skill sets and experience obtained through a BFA program. There are jobs related to the theatre/performing industry and jobs that are not. There are jobs that provide the flexibility to continue to audition and jobs which become a full time endeavor. As an example, my daughter, who is a senior in a BFA MT program, has been employed throughout college in jobs outside of theatre which draw on her skills as a performer and the experiences she has had in her BFA program and which pay her the equivalent of $60 an hour. These are jobs that she will maintain as she graduates and starts auditioning. She has no intention of moving to NYC and living as a stereotypical “starving artist” looking for her big break. She has other plans and has put into place her own game plan to pursue a host of flexible work opportunities available to her utilizing her BFA and the education, skills and experiences she has acquired while still auditioning for professional theatre. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that a BFA education is as every bit a real college education as any other major. Opportunities after graduation are no more limited than as exist with a BA degree. In fact, it could be argued that the nature of the degree provides even a greater scope of options, those unique to a BFA training program and those that are typical of any undergraduate degree. The real issue, however, should be that of allowing a student to have meaningful input into the type of educational experience that will be gratifying for the student, an education in which they are fully invested and will pursue with passion and dedication. In the end, it is that which really influences the student’s ultimate success, not the type of degree or the major.</p>
<p>Wow! NICELY STATED KAT MT!!!</p>
<p>Go MichaelNKat, a great post and one I wholeheartedly second!</p>
<p>Great discussion. It’s such an important process for students and their parents!</p>
<p>On a side note, I waited tables for almost a year after earning my business degree. The economy was bad at the time. I don’t regret it. Those waitressing skills have served me well over the years!</p>
<p>Exactly, but you got a job after a year - thousands upon thousands of MT graduates are still waiting for their ship to come in years later…</p>
<p>As the mother of four daughters, ages 18 to 39, I have shifted my view over time about undergraduate degrees. All of my daughters are performers, having performed in community theatre, school productions, and local equity theatre. My husband and I met in a community theatre show – he was a computer engineer and I was in business management at the time. Our entire family has performed together for years in local productions.
Nevertheless, twenty years ago I would not allow my first daughter to choose a major in music or drama because of my concern about her career path. I encouraged her to major in business and she ended up with a degree in psychology. She continued performing locally during and after college while pursuing her masters in education and obtaining a teaching credential. She is now a tenured public school teacher with two children of her own and is very happy with her career and family.
Thirteen years later when daughter #2 wanted to pursue musical theatre, my husband and I did not hesitate to allow her to follow her dream – parents can learn. She attended UCIrvine and graduated with a Honors in Musical Theatre and an Honors in Drama Literature. Irvine was an extraordinary experience for her with a wonderful faculty. Daughter #2 spent 5 months in NYC interning with Roundabout and decided not to audition. Instead she took a volunteer position with Artscorps and lived in a rural village in El Salvador for two years, teaching drama and theatre to the youth to help give them skills to process their history and culture and learn about environmental issues. This was an opportunity that came to her because of her work with faculty at UCI. She is back home and will be pursuing a graduate degree in Environmental Studies education.
Daughter #3 began college as a Theatre major and then switched to Sociology. She now has a full-time position with benefits working as an administrative assistant and she absolutely loves her job and the people she works with.
This fall, I will send my youngest daughter off to Syracuse for a BFA in musical theatre. She chose the east coast over other great opportunities on the west coast, but this is truly her passion – at least for now. Of course I tried to convince her to choose science or communications, but only to insure that she was indeed committed to this difficult and competitive path.
Bottom line for me – let your children do what makes them happy. They will eventually find their way into a job that makes money, but happiness is the most important thing. If they have passion for what they are studying, they will be more likely to finish their degree.
Please excuse this long-winded response, but I couldn’t resist after MichaelNKat’s excellent post. I need to add that I have been a full-time law professor for 19 years and many of my most successful students have come from a performing arts background. They are smart, creative, and quick on their feet. In my current first year class, one of my students was a successful graduate of Tisch who was injured right before starting a great dancing career. It happens, but I know she will make a great lawyer as well.
If any musical theatre dreamer wants me to talk with their parents, please send me a PM. I eventually learned my lesson – let go of the need to control their career and they will eventually find their passion. Of course, I, too, am still learning how to be a good parent, even after attempting to raise four children.</p>
<p>“Exactly, but you got a job after a year - thousands upon thousands of MT graduates are still waiting for their ship to come in years later…”</p>
<p>But isn’t that because that is a choice they have made, not because having a MT degree has “forced” that choice on them or otherwise limited their options?</p>
<p>Deleted repeated post</p>
<p>MichaelNKat - As always, great posts! You always offer such terrific words of wisdom.</p>
<p>All I know is that my D was blessed to have been given this “talent” along with the desire and drive to be a performer. I am glad she wants to go to college and pursue a BFA in musical theatre. I have no doubt that she will benefit greatly from the training and from the overall college experience. I can’t guarantee she will bring home the “bacon” but I have absolutely no doubt that she will bring joy and laughter and tears and wonder and many other emotions to the audiences who have the opportunity to see her perform. I think in the end that’s way better than any “bacon.”</p>
<p>Snoggie – I think you gave me credit for MichaelNKat’s excellent post… I agree it is very well said! Since alf56 does not specify BFA MT, but MT in general, I will say that I think much of MichaelNKat’s excellent post is true for BA Theatre and Musical Theatre as well. </p>
<p>MTMummy also has terrific points and experiences to share! </p>
<p>Undergraduate school is usually a stop on the educational pathway to a career. MA, MS, MBA, medical school, law school, MFA, Phd, further vocational training in your field… etc…</p>
<p>Many people end up pursuing further education and training in order to obtain the credentials, experience, knowledge, and connections to be more competitive in their fields. Many people end up pursuing a career path that is not directly related to their undergraduate degree… or is directly related, but requires further training and experience. I know BFA and BA Theatre and MT grads who have gone on the be doctors, lawyers, obtain an MBA… Phd… MFA… etc… I also know BFA and BA grads who have chosen to pursue lives as performers… this has been their choice… they did not spend 20 years waiting tables and following a pipe dream without ever working in their field. They have been in Broadway shows, national tours, film, TV… do they sometimes need “survival jobs” in between performing gigs? Some of them, yes… many have “survival jobs” in their field – ie. vocal/ acting coaching, teaching dance, etc… others choose to work in an office, wait tables, tend bar, tutor, etc… but those are all personal choices. Others with performance degrees have transferred those skills to working on the other side of the table – casting, directing, choreographing, etc… sometimes pursuing further formalized training (this is what I chose to do – but college teaching was an interest to me), but often transitioning into these other “roles” because of professional experiences and connections. </p>
<p>Different strokes…</p>
<p>I can see how a parent may not want to spend $200,000 on a degree that seems unemployable. Finances are personal to a family. However, there are many less expensive routes to training and experience… state schools, merit or talent scholarships, etc… </p>
<p>I was fortunate – my parents told me that I was going to spend too much of my life at my job to pursue a career I hate. No amount of money or vacations would make up for years of being miserable. I feel lucky to have a job that I truly enjoy. Both my parents are also still working in their fields at jobs they enjoy… not because they need to, but because they want to.</p>
<p>Maybe Alf56 does not believe that his daughter has the talent to succeed professionally either as a performer or in a related field? I on the other hand went the opposite direction. Jumped in with both feet. </p>
<p>Sadly there are many, many, parents out there that are a little delusional about their children and their talent and that adds to the carnage.</p>
<p>Sorry… in #23, my enthusiasm was for MichaelNKat, not Kat MT. I was in a hurry and didn’t look carefully!! 
Kat MT often says wonderful things that also make me cheer!</p>
<p>MTMummy - a bit off-topic here - but can you share a link for info about Artscorps? Sounds like it was an amazing experience for your daughter. I would love to learn more. Thanks!</p>
<p>Just catching up here and saw the mention of Ellen’s Stardust Diner. We were there last weekend and it was one of the most entertaining parts of our trip to NYC - maybe even the most talented singer that we heard! They claim to have a “Starduster” alumni in every Broadway show and national tour right now (don’t know if it’s true or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it is). We, like many parents here, are jumping in with both feet to support our son’s MT dream. We’ll be proud if Ellen’s is part of his journey one day!</p>
<p>Here is a link to ArtCorps [ArtCorps</a> - About](<a href=“http://www.artcorp.org/About]ArtCorps”>http://www.artcorp.org/About)
I would also encourage you and others interested in this type of work to look at Cornerstone Theatre Company [Cornerstone</a> Theater Company](<a href=“http://www.cornerstonetheater.org/]Cornerstone”>http://www.cornerstonetheater.org/) My daughter did an internship with them the summer after she graduated from Irvine and they are the ones who contacted her about the El Salvador opportunity with ArtsCorps</p>
<p>Finding Pennies, Beentheredad - exactly what I mean. Ellen’s has a phenomenally talented staff and they struggle so to get to Broadway. Many of them get a run here or there, but are back as waitstaff over and over. It is great to be able follow your dream, but you can’t expect parents to fork over $200,000 to prepare you for that life. Perhaps OP can find a state school that offers MT, and minor in something else to fall back on in case she can’t live her dream.</p>
<p>But what about $200,000 for an undedrgrad degree in psych, english, history, sociology, religion, cultural studies, a myriad of other liberal arts majors, or even many of the “hard” sciences? By themselves, without advanced degrees or other certifications, they don’t really give you the credentials to obtain a job with viable sustainable income, whether it’s in your major or some other field. As KatMT commented, undergrad degrees in general are most often simply the launch pad for obtaining grad degrees that lead to meaningful job opportunities in specialized areas of study. And in this regard, as KatMT correctly observes, an undergrad degree in MT or theatre, whether a BFA or BA, provides those very same opportunities. Why shouldn’t a student then be encouraged to pursue an area of study for which the student has passion, which will be approached with the dedication, discipline and self investment needed not only to achieve educational growth and excellence but also to achieve the personal growth and development as a maturing young adult that is part of the college experience. The point that many posters are making is not focused on disputing the odds of whether a student will or will not make it as a performer but, instead, is directed at the skewed notion that for some reason a degree in theatre or MT is not as much a legitimate undergrad educational experience as an undergrad degree in any other area. What the student then does with that degree is a life choice, just as any college student makes a life choice about their post undergrad plans. The fact that the degree is in MT does not, in of itself, materially limit those choices. It is the type of choice that is made that really counts - and even that is not etched in stone.</p>
<p>Take the waitstaff at Ellen’s that you reference. They are among a group of MT/performing arts graduates who have concluded that for some period of their lives they are going to try to “make it” as a performer in NYC. That is a choice and there are certain realities, consequences and a risk/benefit analysis that goes into that choice. Others with the same degrees and training make other choices including the pursuit of regional performing, touring, employment in theatre or other performing arts but not as a performer, performing work outside of theatre; they may seek employment in jobs outside of performing arts that value the creative and other skills that a performing degree develops. They may return for further degrees and certifications in areas unrelated to theatre just like most other undergrads do. All of these are life choices. Having a degree in MT does not disenfranchise a student from making these choices. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that for a student that has a passion for MT or any aspect of theatre, pursuing a BFA or BA in a theatre program couples a meaningful college level education with the kind of personal growth to adulthood that comes from commitment, dedication, hard work and self-discipline. Later down the road, the student will need to engage in some honest and well thought through reflection about what post grad plans make the most sense for him or her, but isn’t that what any college student should be doing anyway?</p>
<p><<<the bottom=“” line=“” is=“” that=“” for=“” a=“” student=“” has=“” passion=“” mt=“” or=“” any=“” aspect=“” of=“” theatre,=“” pursuing=“” bfa=“” ba=“” in=“” theatre=“” program=“” couples=“” meaningful=“” college=“” level=“” education=“” with=“” the=“” kind=“” personal=“” growth=“” to=“” adulthood=“” comes=“” from=“” commitment,=“” dedication,=“” hard=“” work=“” and=“” self-discipline.=“” later=“” down=“” road,=“” will=“” need=“” engage=“” some=“” honest=“” well=“” thought=“” through=“” reflection=“” about=“” what=“” post=“” grad=“” plans=“” make=“” most=“” sense=“” him=“” her,=“” but=“” isn’t=“” should=“” be=“” doing=“” anyway?=“”>>>></the></p>
<p>Truer words were never spoken. This statement only solidifies the support I have for the educational choices my college bound MT D has made and will make in the future. This goes for my younger 2 kids as well…whether they choose to be a ditch digger or a rocket scientist…I’ve always said just be the best damn ditch digger ever!!!</p>
<p>I find your typical BFA degree only brings you half way if you change direction. If per se you decide get a business or science degree instead, you would need at least 2 additional years of school just to get a undergrad degree. A BFA in MT is not that flexible. It is a specialty degree. For kids that are a little less sure of what they want or believe what they will achieve, I think there is a need for a more-rounded setting.</p>
<p>I find myself walking two entirely different paths with my kids. My daughter, who has been performing professionally since she was 8 is going to a 50K Conservatory. My son, who will most definitely go to state school because he wants to be a Secondary Ed teacher can receive his degree just about anyplace. My daughter goes to a conservatory for the specialized training. My son can “find himself” and change direction if he wants. And if it takes a few more years at state, so be it. I would not have my son “find himself” at a 50K school that is for sure.</p>