<p>Shrinkrap, thank you for that link. I was particularly interested in comparing retention rates between schools, both freshman to sophomore and degrees awarded as a percent of freshman even though the latter may be skewed if the number of students enrolled is growing. In the two schools I compared, the selective school had a 28% wash-out rate while the less selective school had a 51% washout rate freshman class size to degrees granted. The freshman to sophomore class size differential was negative 17% and negative 39%, respectively. The 25th to 75th percentiles for Math SAT scores was surprisingly similar in both schools. The differentiator was in the percent from the top quartile of the high school class (89% versus 62%). I also appreciated seeing the acceptance rates into the engineering graduate schools. I had no idea they were that competitive. </p>
<p>One of the data points I would love to see posted, if anybody knows where it can be found, is the average GPA in engineering by school.</p>
<p>Be careful with using these numbers for counting the washout rate. At many schools, a lot of engineering students come in with large amounts of AP credit, so that first year students may have sophomore standing, second year students may have junior standing, etc… Junior and higher standing numbers can also be bulked up by inbound transfers, particularly at public universities.</p>
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<p>[University</a> of California: StatFinder](<a href=“http://statfinder.ucop.edu%5DUniversity”>http://statfinder.ucop.edu) has some information for UC schools. For the entering freshmen of 2008, UC schools’ engineering GPAs after one year were 0.01 to 0.17 lower than the same UC schools’ overall GPAs after one year. For the entering freshmen of 2003, UC schools’ engineering GPAs at graduation were all lower than the same UC schools’ overall GPAs at graduation, but by less than 0.10.</p>
<p>However, the different UC schools’ GPAs varied considerably, with the most selective schools having the highest GPAs.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, that web site does not have any data more recent than 2009.</p>
<p>Thanks, ucbalumnus. I realize it is very difficult to tease out what is actually going on so it only provides some relative guidance. I was looking at some Virginia, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania public engineering programs. </p>
<p>We have a son who is currently a junior in engineering at WVU and also a son who graduated in engineering from UVA; no more kids in the pipeline so just like to look at the data for fun. Neither came in with any AP credits; both will graduate in four years; both have had almost identical GPAs so far. They are in different programs, are very different personality types, and came in with widely divergent high school experiences, but may end up at pretty similar places career wise in about a year.</p>
<p>So far so good, and son thinks he has found the perfect balance. Good grades on Physics and Calc quizzes, and enjoying it so far, although he knows the really work lies ahead. Less dancing this semester, but tennis and basketball…</p>
<p>Public state schools generally have a higher SAT/GPA requirement to be admitted directly into the engineeing school than is required to enter other majors. However they do still admit students with lessor stats than the top privates.</p>
<p>Once these kids get into their courses it is sink or swim. The course is taught at a certain pace in order to cover the required material and does not slow down for those students who do not understand the material. Often these intro courses have many, many students in each class. So those students who can’t keep up drop out. </p>
<p>I believe this is why you see a much higher percentage of State school students dropping engineering.</p>
<p>I think that the pace of material coming in and the difficulty accelerates through the semester. If they don’t cover the required material, then students aren’t prepared for the following-on courses.</p>
<p>Frazzled kids have also seen professors in the intro classes deliberately ramp up the difficulty of exams over the course of the semester, if too many students have done well on the first exam. (There can be a real advantage here in entering the class with prior mastery of the material.) Conversely, if too many students do poorly, either there is a curve to raise grades, or subsequent exams tend to get easier. I stopped asking them how they felt they did on any exam when the answer was always something along the lines of “depends on how everyone else did.”</p>
<p>They have also remarked that difficulty of the material aside, some professors are much better at presentation than others as far as the needs of most students are concerned. It helps to learn how to get good at looking at multiple textbooks or study guides if something is not clear, and to learn how to form effective study groups.</p>
<p>What also drives them nuts seems to be the classes where they have no idea whatsoever of how they are actually doing because grades are so poor, and the professor can’t seem to decide if or how to curve. (This actually seems to happen more in upper-level classes.) Also, classes where exams are multiple choice and homework is not carefully graded before being returned, making it impossible to get partial credit or easily learn from mistakes. (More likely in large intro classes and in public universities outside of honors classes.)</p>
<p>At what point do they decide engineering is not for them? Is it mostly the weed-out calculus and physics that does it? If a student has successfully made it through the early math and science and engineering fundamentals, does he usually stay strong? My son showed me his second semester sophomore schedule and holy cow, does that look hard - organic chemistry, ChemE thermodynamics, Engineering Heat and Flow Exchange. I’m kind of a waiting for the other shoe to drop person so I always think something is going to go horribly wrong.</p>
<p>My son announced that he would graduate this May in Mechanical Engineering. In 4 years he has only gotten 1 B !! He wants to go immediately into a MA in Nuclear Engineering ,and the school he is applying to said he would get more merit aid if he is willing to go for a PhD . I am sharing this with you all because I never believed my son would get it together when he was a Soph. in HS. The thing that really seemed to light a fire under his a-- was becoming a volunteer EMT .It totally changed his life- he really grew up from this experience. Of course, I am so full of pride from his committment to working hard ! thought the EMT idea might be of interest to young slackers !</p>
<p>Izzie - I don’t know if “they” decide engineering is not for them, or the coursework just does them in. As an engineer, I think fresh and soph years are by far the most difficult. Once you get through those first two years, things seem to settle down. </p>
<p>I was talking to my dentist the other day about all those weed out classes STEM kids must navigate through those first two years. It really is too bad, imo, that instead of trying to help kids get more proficient and up to speed in difficult classes like calc, we “weed them out.” Especially with kids come in from all different HS with varying levels of academic readiness. Why can’t we have a 5 year program to get some of these kids who could succeed with a little help? Yes, there are kids who need to move on, but I am sure there are others who could make it with a little help.</p>
When I was in community college, there were a number of students who had been “weeded out” and dropped back to try again. It can be done, but I think the students who don’t make it through the first time and still want to try often end up regrouping at community colleges or other lower level state schools.</p>
<p>agree strongly with mamom. unfortunately, though, it seems like it will take a lot of work at the legislative level to truly reform the way things are currently done. it’s ridiculous, and too many people have bought into the ‘weeding out is okay’ quasi social darwinism bull. yet–at the same time–we wonder why our country lags behind in producing scientists???</p>
<p>“Weeding” may not be intentional policy, but a side effect of the fact that engineering has important prerequisite sequences. If the freshman and sophomore math and physics courses do not teach sufficient material, or are overly grade inflated, then students who passed those courses may still be insufficiently prepared to handle junior and senior level engineering course work.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, if I look at the History department section of the course catalog of the school I attended, nearly all of the undergraduate courses have no prerequisites.</p>
<p>With all that you folks are saying about weed out courses especially in large state universities, do any of you have any words of wisdom regarding how a kid can survive these? My kiddo is about to be one of those freshmen, a good student with a good work ethic but not a tippy top student and has mild ADHD and like Shrinkwrap’s S he has many other interests and loves to have fun.</p>
<p>Read the book.
Go to class.
Do the homework.
Study for tests.</p>
<p>Now, the above won’t help if you find that you just don’t get math and physics, or find that you really dislike those subjects. But if that does not apply to you, then simply having good study habits will help a lot. A lot of students don’t consistently read the book or go to class, and wonder why they did not do that well in the course.</p>
<p>Note that you can learn three or four different ways in class:</p>
<p>If you do all three or four, then your chances of learning the material are increased compared to if you skip some of them (as many students do).</p>
<ul>
<li>Keep up-to-date with current events related to the course (science courses). Son got a few free points here and there on this.</li>
<li>Audit the course before you take this - friend’s son’s friend did this at Michigan for some tough courses</li>
<li>Read the book and do the problems before the semester starts (requires a lot of self-motivation)</li>
</ul>
I always tell students - don’t get behind. In physics everything builds on everything else - if you get behind, you are not only not getting last week’s work, but you aren’t getting this week’s work either, since it depends upon your having gotten the previous concepts.</p>
<p>A lot of students, unfortunately, don’t go to class. Even if you think it’s not helping much, go to class, attend recitations if there are any, and get help from the TA as soon as you realize you need it. If you’re still having trouble, do more problems than were assigned.</p>
<p>It’s amazing how many students don’t go to class, or don’t go to recitation or get help and then turn around and blame the teachers and TA’s for their poor grades. Blame away, but it’s your education one way or the other.</p>