<p>Shrinkrap my offer still stands - he can pm me to see if there is anything I can help with. I do have a phd in physics, after all, lol.</p>
<p>I will let him know, but I am still twisting his arm to use actual tutors, as opposed to his friends. He certainly plans to study during spring break.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap,</p>
<p>My younger son is now taking Physics 11A, Mechanics for Physical Science and Engineering, at Sacramento State and told me he would be in real trouble if he had not taken Math 30 Calculus (Same as Math 1a at UC Berkeley) during Fall Semester and Math 31 at Sacramento State this semester since Physics 11A incorporates both Differentiation and Integration from the first chapter. Sac state strictly enforces the requirements of Math 30 as a prerequisite and Math 31 as a co-requisite for Physics 11A. </p>
<p>My older son is taking Physics 11C, Electricity and Magnetism, at Sac State and told me if he had not already finished Math 32 (Same as Math 53 at Berkeley) he would be really lost since E&M makes heavy use of Vector Calculus which is not introduced until you get to Math 32.</p>
<p>Physics is really hard if you do not have the proper background in Math, and Physics for Scientists and Engineers normally assumes at least one full semester of Calculus has already been completed and two more will be taken concurrently.</p>
<p>Why do you suppose his advisor is not telling him that, and even told him it will be fine?</p>
<p>I really do not understand. I am pretty sure Sacramento State is not the only university in California that requires completion of Calculus I and concurrent registration in Calculus II in order to take the first semester of a Calculus based Physics course. I ended up in medical school but received my BS in Physics and Astronomy at the University of Maryland College Park and even though that was a long time ago You had to take Calculus before doing Physics and Astronomy classes so I do not think Sac State is doing anything new or unusual. </p>
<p>I am sure your son can learn Mechanics eventually but right now he does not have the required Math skills. I think you are being done a disservice and my recommendation would be to drop the Physics course for this semester, concentrate on really learning the material in his Calculus I class, try to pick up Calculus II this summer, and then taking Mechanics and Calculus III in the fall. He can then take Electricity and Magnetism in Spring 2013 with a proper Math background. That will lengthen the time it takes to get his degree but right now he seems set up to fail.</p>
<p>Do you know where I can find a 4.5 or 5 year plan, starting like that? I have really wanted to ask his school this directly, but as you may know from earlier posts, been cautioned by many to stay out of it.</p>
<p>Son’s school had a webpage with a plans, three four-year and one five-year. The three four-year plans start with calc 1/physics 1, calc 1, then physics 1 second semester, prep for calc, calc 1/physics 1, and then the five-year-plan - prep for calc first semester, calc 1 second semester, physics 1 third semester.</p>
<p>Perhaps there are proposed course plans at his school online.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, do you really think it is better to base your child’s future on advice from strangers on the Internet (who by the way have repeated multiple times that your child’s preparation is inadequate), or to speak to his advisor? </p>
<p>What is the name of that river in Egypt?</p>
<p>^^I’ve looked, but can’t find anything like that, at least as a visitor. Maybe if you log in somewhere. Would you mind sharing a link?</p>
<p>" do you really think it is better to base your child’s future on advice from strangers on the Internet (who by the way have repeated multiple times that your child’s preparation is inadequate), or to speak to his advisor? </p>
<p>What is the name of that river in Egypt?"</p>
<p>I like to think some of this is helpful, and so is the advisor, and don’t “base my child’s future” on either one, nor both.</p>
<p>Are you saying I am in denial? Of which part? This is not therapy, so maybe you could speed it up.</p>
<p>18 credits does sound like too much if he is continuing to struggle. My junior son has taken 18 credits but he has done fine so has not been an issue. If he were not doing well, that would be another story. It sounds like you and others have advised him to cut back and use tutors but his “pride” is getting in the way. That is unfortunate as his best chance of success in engineering potentially slips away the more he digs in his heels. I looked at son’s schedule at Virginia Tech and it looks like he also had at least 1 semester of calculus before he took physics. He had calculus 1 and linear algebra first semester along with chemistry. He had calculus 2 and vector geometry and phyiscs second semester of freshman year. Good luck. I hope it all works out for him (and for you). It does sound like he needs to be more open to the help that is being offered.</p>
<p>This 5 year plan looks …okay…anybody see any problems?</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.engr.sjsu.edu/mae/forms/5_yrplan_ME%20degree_F11.pdf[/url]”>http://www.engr.sjsu.edu/mae/forms/5_yrplan_ME%20degree_F11.pdf</a></p>
<p>Just one to show son as a sample while he is here.</p>
<p>The problem I would see,Shrinkrap, is this is not related to your son’s school (unless I am mistaken). Each school needs to be ABET accredited but should have their own curriculum listed on their website (to say what you have to do to get the degree). I couldn’t find the info online for LMU but it may be there but just couldn’t find it. Have you seen it so you have a roadmap? Older son graduated in engineering at UVa and the curriculum there is based on graduating in 4 years. [Undergraduate</a> Curriculum Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering](<a href=“http://www.mae.virginia.edu/NewMAE/?page_id=534]Undergraduate”>http://www.mae.virginia.edu/NewMAE/?page_id=534) . VT son is in line to graduate in 4 years as well. However, some kids do take longer and there is nothing wrong with that as long as they are doing well and making steady progress.</p>
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<p>The most obvious 4.5 year plan is to use the [4</a> year plan](<a href=“http://cse.lmu.edu/Assets/Colleges+Schools/CSE/Mechanical+Engr/Undergraduate+Curriculum.pdf]4”>http://cse.lmu.edu/Assets/Colleges+Schools/CSE/Mechanical+Engr/Undergraduate+Curriculum.pdf), but offset it by one semester to account for needing to take precalculus as a first semester freshman. I.e. normal freshman fall becomes freshman spring, normal freshman spring becomes sophomore fall, etc… Any additional courses taken as a first semester freshmen (e.g. writing, chemistry, breadth) may be able to lighten the load in other semesters.</p>
<p>For what it is worth, Berkeley also lists first semester freshman calculus (Math 1A or AP credit for it) as a prerequisite for the first physics for scientists and engineers course (Physics 7A); students taking the physics sequence are expected to continue the math courses alongside if they have not already completed them.</p>
<p>The problem, ucb, is that a lot of schools have courses only offered in either spring or fall but not both. So offsetting by one semester doesn’t really work if you end up with courses offset by a whole year. My observation is that the 5 year plans extend the first 2 years to 3 years, rather than affecting the last 2 years. Some schools offer a second major to make up for that extra year (5 years gets you a bs in engineering + a bs in something else).</p>
<p>For the life of me I cannot understand why some very reputatable undergraduate Engineering programs encourage students to enroll in physics during the Freshman year. Since Lake Jr.'s Junior year I’ve taken a look at several course guides for the B.S. in Mechanical Engineering (and received much great advice and information from fellow CCers) and have come to the conclusion that Lake Jr. should at the very least enroll in community college Calculus II this summer prior to his Freshman year at university. At present Lake Jr. is enrolled in Calculus AB at high school and modestly enjoying it (not crazy about Math but has received good grades throughout high school).</p>
<p>I also suggested that he take no more than 16 hours (preferably no more than 15, including no more than 3 Engineering or Math courses) during the first two years at university. From my calculations, this can be done and a B.S. diploma can be had in four years if 2 summer school sessions are part of the equation.</p>
<p>Well, LakeW, if he’s a semester ahead in math he is in pretty good shape already. Taking even more math to prepare is a good idea but only if you don’t have to worry about burnout with your kid. Some kids would be better off spacing things out like you outline, others would do better with summer breaks.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, my heart goes out to you. As someone who worked in engineering, I can only suggest that you tell your kid that NOBODY cares how long you took to get your degree once you’re hired somewhere. It is not a topic of discussion. Nor is grade point, nor even where you went to school. People get assignments based on how well the boss thinks he or she can do the job, not on other irrelevant facts.</p>
<p>sylvan, I have a BS in Eng. Phys. from a big Midwestern flagship. I wish I had a dollar for every time we were required to use math in advanced physics classes that we had not covered in a math class. This was never a problem in the intro physics sequence if I recall correctly, though there were a few instances of “just-in-time” math prep ;). We had Calc I under our belts and were taking Calc II during Physics I.</p>
<p>But it happened all the time in upper division classes. If the prof noticed we all had blank stares he went ahead and taught the math quickly, then we proceeded with the physics. I suppose that this was done so people could graduate in four years.</p>
<p>The fact that Shrink’s kid is being told that Calc I and Physics I are OK together seems to indicate that either the physics is watered down a lot, or the school is taking the ‘oh, you’ll manage, it’s only a little math’ approach we experienced. I’m curious if you have any comments on how typical this is?</p>
<p>Treetopleaf, when I was in undergrad the cc I attended had Freshmen taking Calc I and Mechanics I in their first semester. Schools seem to have gotten away from that now, probably because lots of kids failed out due to lack of math preparation. One LAC at which I adjuncted had a dual course Calculus I/Physics I option which was team taught by a physics professor and a math professor. They basically covered the material from calc and put it to use with physics examples. That seemed to work for some students who might need extra math prep. </p>
<p>It is surprising that the advisors would suggest that Shrinkson would be fine with taking the courses at the same time.</p>
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<p>Some engineering majors have long sequences of prerequisites that start with calculus and physics. So it is often necessary to start first semester freshman calculus in freshman fall term, then start physics in freshman spring term, in order to have enough schedule space later to take the needed engineering courses.</p>
<p>Students who have taken calculus in high school often start in a more advanced math course, and can start physics in freshman fall term.</p>