Parents of engineering freshman....

Parents Forum
541

<p>So, half way though Calc ii, and it’s scary. Gulp. I found myslef looking at the computer science option, and would love it if that were a good fit. I get that it’s not for everybody, but the LMU program has no more math after calc II, fewer credits per semester, and LOTS of room for electives. </p>

<p>[Curriculum</a> - LMU Computer Science](<a href=“http://www.cs.lmu.edu/curriculum]Curriculum”>http://www.cs.lmu.edu/curriculum)</p>

<p>And he would LOVE this one;</p>

<p>CMSI 265 Elements of Computer Music</p>

<p>Key concepts, technologies, and history at the juncture of computation and music, including sound synthesis, sampling, and sequencing. Explorations of computational aspects of music theory, with applications in machine composition, transcription, and performance.</p>

<pre><code>Units: 3
</code></pre>

<p>Oh, well. Saying it here rather than saying it elsewhere.</p>

542

<p>From the web site, it does require additional math:</p>

<p>Math 248 - Proof methods
Math 360 - Probability (at schools with a separate statistics department, this would be under that department)
Math 366 - Discrete math (sometimes this course is under CS at other schools)</p>

<p>Also, the following courses should be math-like:</p>

<p>CMSI 282 - Algorithms
CMSI 385 - Theory of computation</p>

<p>However, much of the math in the courses above is somewhat different math from freshman calculus.</p>

<p>Has he expressed interest in switching to the CS major?</p>

543

<p>"Has he expressed interest in switching to the CS major? "</p>

<p>Nope! He seems to think all is well. </p>

<p>Don’t know if he knows what CS is. I know he spends a lot of his “free” time on what I think is graphic and music software. </p>

<p>And I showed my ignorance. There IS additional math. Can you compare </p>

<p>"Math 248 - Proof methods
Math 360 - Probability (at schools with a separate statistics department, this would be under that department)
Math 366 - Discrete math (sometimes this course is under CS at other schools)</p>

<p>Also, the following courses should be math-like:</p>

<p>CMSI 282 - Algorithms
CMSI 385 - Theory of computation"</p>

<p>to Calculus III, “DiffY”, and the usual ME suspects? I am so out of my league. I probably won’t know what you are talking about. </p>

<p>What I know is, son got an email that said </p>

<p>"Kids:</p>

<p>I’ve been mulling over the fact that we’ve got only this week left before the drop date hits like the sword of Damocles: after Friday of this week you won’t have a chance to drop the course and you’ll just have to take whatever comes down on you …</p>

<p>The next examination is scheduled for Tuesday, 24 July, eight days from now, and it will concern improper integrals to a very limited extent, and infinite series to a HUGE extent. Those of you who are not comfortable yet with methods of integration (which will haunt you to a limited degree on the next test and to a much greater degree on the final examination in three weeks) are at risk on two counts: you’re weak on integrals and are going to be getting hit hard with series. Be forewarned …</p>

<p>For those who did very badly on test #1, I must say that I do not hold out much hope for you to pass the course. In other words, if your first chance at earning 150 points ended in catastrophe, i.e. a low D or below, chances are that things will not get any better, even with 350 points to go. Furthermore, infinite series is a tricky business and getting the hang of it quickly is very demanding, even as it’s unavoidable that we go fast in the Summer. Therfore, think and pray about the choices before you. I feel I’m obliged not to sugar-coat the pill …</p>

<pre><code>This said, I’ll work with all of you: stay for office hours, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions!"
</code></pre>

<p>Son thought that was scary for about 24 hours, and is now pretty upbeat. This next bit seems right up his alley.</p>

544

<p>^My S is taking Calc IV this summer. He said it’s getting tricky–triple integrals! I have no idea.</p>

545

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<p>Math proofs. If you took a proof-based geometry course in high-school, you would have some familiarity. The impression that I get is that most high-schools don’t do proofs requiring a separate course in college for math and math-related majors. At my son’s school, they cover proofs in Discrete Math. A common book for Discrete Math is Rosen’s Discrete Mathematics and its Applications and it covers them relatively early on.</p>

<p>Calculus, and Prob/Stats can be taught with or without proofs.</p>

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<p>Generally a calc-based probability and statistics course. Son’s course was proof-based. I think that the prereq was either Calc 2 or Calc 3. It can be a ton of work.</p>

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<p>This can be an easy course or a hard course (usually the latter). It
typically covers a lot of different kinds of math related to counting
that most high-school students don’t see a lot of.</p>

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<p>Two heavy-duty proof-based courses, typically quite difficult and
they can be quite abstract. You can find samples of these courses
(maybe not for pro/stats) at the MIT OCW website including considerable
course materials.</p>

546

<p>…Uncle…</p>

547

<p>Shrinkrap, it seems to me based on the professor’s email that if your son got a low D or below on the first exam, he would be better off dropping the course, and re-taking it in the fall, even though this will put him somewhat behind the normal schedule for classes. If your son got a C or above, and he understands infinite series (and has worked out his problem with integrals), then it would be ok for him to stay in the class. However, it would still not be a bad idea to drop it and take the course in the fall. He really needs to understand what is going on in math. Different people “get it” at different rates. </p>

<p>In the fall, I would recommend that he go to office hours, and ask questions. Odds are that he is just approaching the material from an unprofitable angle. A professor or TA can often spot the nature of the student’s difficulties and clarify things. No faculty member will look down on a student who comes to office hours–at least, if they show up at office hours other than immediately before a test to ask what is on it, or immediately after an exam to contest their grades. In fact, it is generally the stronger students who come to office hours.</p>

<p>Incidentally, I found that my first-year students often did not understand the concept of office hours. My listed office hours are the times that I guarantee to be available to the students to answer their questions on the specific course. It is not the entire set of times that I am in my office! If the students understand this, they may be more likely to come. Faculty (including me) often take for granted that students know what “office hours” are.</p>

548

<p>He goes to office hours every day, and he is not alone. His grade was somwhere between a C and a low D :-). </p>

<p>We would like him to continue going, even if he drops now, or withdraws after the next test, but pretty good chance he will change majors if he has to repeat the class.</p>

549

<p>Shrinkrap - is he working or anything else? or is he able to devote 24/7 to this course right now? He should be doing absolutely as many problems as he can (WAY MORE than are being assigned if possible - answers to half of them are in the back of the book). Practice, practice!!!</p>

550

<p>I always thought the methods of integration and infinite series were some of the hardest new concepts in calculus, and some of the most important. It seems to me like my upper division EE professors always assumed you knew these things like the back of your hand and they’d fling around all sorts of solutions with series approximations, integration by parts and various complicated approximations and substitutions like it was nothing. The small angle approximation sticks in my mind but I’m sure there were many other more complicated application of approximations using series, not to mention the various power series like Fourier, etc and the digital applications.</p>

<p>I don’t know if I would have tried to learn this over the summer, although I’m sure many people are capable of doing it. You really need to know this stuff well for EE and Physics, I can’t speak for the other engineering disciplines. Whether you actually ever use it at work is another matter, but you need to know the math well to get through the upper div classes. If he is really struggling I’d recommend biting the bullet and starting over. I wouldn’t want to rely on scraping by with a C in summer school. He might be able to make it through the program but he’d be miserable. At least IMO. I got As and Bs in calc IIRC and it was very tough for me. YMMV.</p>

551

<p>He is not working. He does go to the gym, and play basketball and tennis occassionally. He asked if I thought he should stop doing that, and I said it’s better than taking naps, but he is not a napper. He seeems to feel he is practicing a lot, both with assignments and online, I beleive stuff folks here have reccomended and I sent to him last week. He does not “angst” with me as much as he used to, probably a good thing, but he pointed out that he was pretty upbeat on Tuesday…He still seems to be resisting the idea of going to tutoring. </p>

<p>After “googling” Calc 2 I had a lot of reservations about trying to do it in the summer. The “welcome” letter the prof sent made it sound like it was a crazy idea, but the teacher gets good reviews.</p>

<p>BTW, I should not have said he thinks all is well. He is just not talking about switching majors right now. In the past when we have talked about it, he seems to have no ideas about what else he might be willing to try. He really wants to work in automotive engineering.</p>

552

<p>From the prof’s message, it seems that the last date to drop is this Friday, and second test not till next Tuesday. So he. So he cannot wait till after the test to decide about withdra
wing. Just a friendly alert. Sent from my phone.</p>

553

<p>Calc 2 is known to be one of the hardest courses at CO School of Mines. Some kids retake it in summer and fail again. I assume many do continue on with same engineering major and get their degrees.</p>

554

<p>^I have heard that at other schools too. </p>

<p>I mentioned that to son who responded, “you say that now, because you are trying to make me feel better. Last month you and dad said this might say something about whether I should stay in this major”. I sure whish he could get his advice from someone who knows !</p>

555

<p>"From the prof’s message, it seems that the last date to drop is this Friday, and second test not till next Tuesday. So he. So he cannot wait till after the test to decide about withdraw
wing. Just a friendly alert. Sent from my phone. "</p>

<p>Uh, oh! I was thinking the “drop” date was the one where you can get out without a W on your record, and after that you got a W. How does it work in summer school?</p>

<p>Just checked; Yes, Friday is the W date, and “last day to apply for credit/no credit grading”.</p>

556

<p>Probably after the drop date, you get an F if you stop going. Otherwise you have to soldier on and get whatever grade you can muster.</p>

557

<p>You should check the catalog for the requirements in order to withdraw. Every school has different rules. However, at ours, it requires a Dean’s permission to withdraw after the drop date, and normally required an unforeseeable event that interferes with the student’s completing the course, e.g. auto accident. A student cannot just withdraw because he/she is doing poorly. Also, to get a W on the transcript, the student must be passing at the time of withdrawal. Othe
r schools have different rules, though, as noted.</p>

558

<p>Okay, thanks.</p>

559

<p>FWIW, my daughter asked to withdraw from her Calc 2 course last semester. I asked her why and she said it was the professor. After a little digging, I said okay. She is reviewing the MIT materials this summer and that’s working out well. I suggested she take the course with a particular professor - he is tough but fair, predictable and he explains everything up-front.</p>

560

<p>^ Just to be clear…she asked YOU to withdraw? This is is the weird part. When I was in school, I decided, but it was me and the military paying…gulp. What exactly does this have to do with ME?</p>