<p>When I said he should be skating through precalc, I meant that typically engineering students have enough math intuition not to have to work hard in precalc. By the time a student gets to calc, mv calc and differential equations the precalc should be second nature.</p>
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<p>Agree with this. We have the general saying that 1/3rd of starting engineering students complete their engineering degrees. Many engineering students took AP Calc. Some engineering students have a lot more (differential equations, multivariable, linear algebra, engineering statistics, AP Computer Science, etc.) and many come in with pre-calc.</p>
<p>Students with just pre-calc are competing (via the grading curve) with those with more and sometimes far more math and each other.</p>
<p>Thanks to the poster who posted the link to the Stanford handbook. Note this paragraph.</p>
<p>“The best strategy is to avoid the extremes. A first-year schedule that includes no mathematics,science, or engineering will make it very difficult to complete an engineering major in four years.Conversely, it is surely a recipe for disaster to insist on packing your first year with three quarters each of calculus, physics, and chemistry along with the mandatory Introduction to the Humanities and Program in Writing and Rhetoric classes. There is too much work in each of those courses to
take them all at the same time, particularly before you’ve had a chance to acclimate to Stanford’s intensity and rapid pace. You should seek an appropriate balance for your studies.”</p>
<p>Shrinkwrap, you could probably tell that quite a few of us are feeling your pain…</p>
<p>^^I don’t understand. If you come in as pre calc, and later “catch up”, does that mean you to be able to hold your own with the kids who came in more advanced? That makes sense if most of the classes will be curved, and you are behind because of less math intuition. Wondering if it might be different if you just got a late start. </p>
<p>Does any one think there is a math SAT , perhaps reflecting math intuition, below which it’s just going to be a constant struggle? Does anyone know if that is primarily true during school or is it also true for passing whatever licensing tests there are? For example I may always struggle to compete with classmates at Harvard, but still do fine on MCATS and medical boards.</p>
<p>There are lots of kids coming in that do fine with precalc. There are kids with a lot of innate ability that went to schools that didn’t make the most of that ability and they catch up in college. In general, though, chance favors the prepared mind.</p>
<p>Here’s a link to materials that might be useful for evaluating math intuition:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.exeter.edu/academics/6539.aspx[/url]”>http://www.exeter.edu/academics/6539.aspx</a></p>
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<p>Apparently, it is up to around 80% at Berkeley now, but entrance selectivity is higher now than it was when I remember it looking like a lot less than 80% (overall graduation rate now is around 90% in six years, around 70% in four years, both much higher than they were years ago). Also, years ago, there was less pressure to get a degree in a major based on job and career prospects, since going to university cost a lot less, and a non-specific bachelor’s degree still gave decent job and career prospects.</p>
<p>It does appear that engineering degree programs tend to disappear as one gets to the lower end of the selectivity spectrum of four year universities.</p>
<p>I am grateful that at DS’s school they limit first semester freshmen to 3 courses, the required humanities + 2 others. Even though my kiddo had completed BC Calc and had a 5 on the exam, they refused to allow him to enroll in Calc II (a soph course); instead he did programming & analysis. In retrospect, all for the best. DS had time to make friends, to find some extracurricular interests, and to adjust to dorm life w/o intense academic pressure. He does say he felt “underchallenged” at times, but he will more than make up for it in the semesters ahead. He will also likely take some courses this summer - more out of interest than anything else.
I think we have to remember - no matter the major - that the first part of freshman year is as much about adjustment to the new way of life as it is to the academic program. It’s hard to see kids whose faith in themselves or their choices has been rocked…</p>
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<p>Calculus 2 is usually a second semester freshman course (although often taken by first semester freshmen who got a 5 on AP Calculus AB); a student who got a 5 on AP Calculus BC is considered ready for Calculus 3 or Linear Algebra at most universities.</p>
<p>My husband is an engineer as well as both sons. Older son had 5 on AP calculus BC but decided to do calculus again at UVa as a first year at the advice of his advisor during summer orientation. He didn’t regret that and did very well at UVa. Younger son was deferred, then waitlisted at Virginia Tech in engineering and when he got off the waitlist,he had to start in university studies before being allowed to transfer to engineering, despite math SAT’s over 700. His high school record was not great (homework, forget about it-very frustrating).I admit, I didn’t even get it in high school when he wanted to do engineering as his grades were so lackluster. Reading these posts makes me realize now how right the engineering admissions people were in putting him through these hoops. Sounds like engineering faculty may be screening better at the initial undergrad level.He had 5 in AP physics in high school but refused to go beyond precalc because he just didn’t feel like it. He took stuff like AP Stat instead. Making him go through these hoops is the best thing that happened to him. He is a junior, top of his class, almost 3.9 in engineering, an undergrad TA . I never would have imagined it. Every kid is different and engineering is not the best path for lots of kids if they are struggling. Good luck to your son in deciding if engineering is right for him.</p>
<p>My error ucbaalumnus - he’s headed to CalcIII/Linear next year!</p>
<p>Best to ShrinkRap and others helping their children sort out the best paths.</p>
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<p>It depends. I don’t think every college works that way. My son finished Calculus 3, Differential Equations at a community college and Linear Algebra at an UC campus at the end of his 11th grade. He took the exam to get credit for the Differential Equation class during his freshman year. But he repeated Calculus 2 (multi variable calculus) in college and still found it very challenging. College math class is very different from AP math and community college math classes. Getting a head 2 or 3 classes in HS does not mean a lot in college. Remember the tortoise and the hare story?</p>
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<p>It can mean finishing a semester early. Our son took a number of university math and computing courses in high-school and they provided a fine background for the real thing.</p>
<p>My kids took/are taking the full 4 years to graduate. No rush for us/them in getting out early . College really can be the best 4 years of your life! I just didn’t want my kids to take longer than 4 years to graduate if it could be avoided.</p>
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<p>My own experience was that going from BC (taken over one year in high school, A in class and 5 on AP test) to college math (multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations at a four year university, A grades) was that it would have been a waste of time to repeat freshman calculus in university.</p>
<p>Granted, this was decades ago, before the trend of pushing high school students ahead in math even though they may not be ready, then slowing them down by forcing them to take calculus over two years instead of one. So perhaps more recent high school students who are not really that great in math and got used to the slow pace of two year high school calculus may find it more of a shock in faster paced college math. It is a step backward at the high school level.</p>
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<p>That’s two or three free electives in your schedule to take whatever you want instead of wasting time and tuition repeating what you already know. Or it may allow graduating early, or graduating on time while taking less than normal course loads (which are often overloads in some engineering degree programs).</p>
<p>LM is not exactly a rigorous program, but that said, if he’s only in pre-calc as a freshman he runs the risk of not doing well in other core courses which he should master now BEFORE he attempts more rigorous coursework in his major.
Foundation work in calculus, physics and chemistry is essential for success.
He should consider holding off on the physics until he can manage calculus.</p>
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<p>Any ABET-accredited engineering degree program is at least moderately rigorous to meet minimum ABET-accreditation standards. Indeed, it can be hard to find ABET-accredited engineering degree programs at the least selective universities (such as the non-impacted CSUs in California where a 2.5 GPA and 900 SAT CR+M gets in as a state resident), probably because there is little student demand for, or capability to handle, engineering at such schools.</p>
<p>So “Physics 101 Intro to Mechanics” is as challenging as “Physics”?</p>
<p>Here is a syllabus
<a href=“Homepage Gabriele Varieschi”>Homepage Gabriele Varieschi;
<p>As a “physics for scientists and engineers” course, it is typically considered the more challenging freshman physics course available (unless an honors version of the same course is offered). Less challenging versions typically include “physics for biology majors and pre-meds” and “physics for non-majors” / “physics for poets”.</p>
<p>The syllabus lists first semester freshman calculus as a corequisite, though at some other schools, it is a prerequisite. It does appear that in the normal schedule for mechanical engineering majors at LMU, it is taken after completion of first semester freshman calculus.</p>
<p>He may want to go through the book and see how quickly calculus starts being used in it (perhaps compare the syllabus with that of the first semester freshman calculus course). If calculus appears in the physics book earlier than the same concepts are covered in the calculus course, then that could be a problem. If so, perhaps consider skipping physics (or replacing it with some other course like a “University Core” breadth course) and taking it in the summer along with second semester freshman calculus. However, be sure that the course is available in the summer at nearby semester-system colleges (community colleges and/or CSU Sacramento).</p>
<p>Note that the syllabus indicates absolute scale grading, as opposed to “grading on a curve” as the term is usually used to describe grading methods.</p>
<p>Oy vey…</p>
<p>If he only tested into PreCalc, he is definitely playing catchup with regards to an engineering major. He should have had precalc in HS, and most engineering majors would have had calc in HS (tho they may choose to repeat it as freshmen, depending on their AP score.)</p>