Parents of engineering freshman....

Parents Forum
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<p>Those courses overlap a little I guess. I mean, they use the term “vector” in LA.</p>

<p>But at the introductory level I can’t think of two courses more different in the typical program. Maybe for math geniuses there is a huge amount of apparent overlap. For us mere mortals, they look pretty different.</p>

<p>MVC-
<a href=“MIT Course Management System”>MIT Course Management System;

<p>LA-
[18.06</a> Fall 2011](<a href=“http://web.mit.edu/18.06/www/psets.shtml]18.06”>18.06 Linear Algebra)</p>

<p>Maybe it’s different for mathematicians, but I thought LA was significantly different than most of the calculus I took.</p>

<p>Edit: Of course you need a firm foundation in high school algebra for both.</p>

<p>Edit 2 - BTW. I think the general idea of your post is correct, I agreee with it. I just had a different POV/experience on this one detail.</p>

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<p>With an AP score of 5, it is generally best to move ahead as far as the university recommends. If retaking, it would only likely be worthwhile if an honors course exists (a very few super-elite schools’ normal courses are like honors courses elsewhere, though). Retaking the regular course would likely just be a boring waste of time and tuition.</p>

<p>If the requirement fulfilled by the AP credit is only a peripheral requirement and not a key prerequisite for later courses, take the subject credit and enjoy the free elective in its place later.</p>

<p>With an AP score of 3 or 4 in a course that is a key prerequisite for later courses, moving ahead or retaking can go either way, though with a score of 3, the case for retaking gets stronger.</p>

<p>If old final exams for the course at the university are available, using them to check one’s knowledge of the subject as taught in the university can help make the decision.</p>

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<p>Yes, it is somewhat of an individual thing, but universities typically have recommendations for students with AP credit (e.g. 5 on AB -> take second semester freshman calculus; 5 on BC -> take sophomore math; etc.). A really top student (A grades, AP scores of 5, 800 scores on all SAT sections) is much less likely to need to take a lesser load than other students – some do just fine taking heavy course loads and getting A grades in university.</p>

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<p>If your sons engineering school is like my sons, there are very few required classes outside of the engineering curriculum. Son took two freshmen year, then took them online between freshmen and sophomore years. (English, World Civ, History). Got them all out of the way. Is this an option for your son?</p>

<p>He has yet to take less than 18 credits a semester and already had 130 credits (including 45 he came in to college) at the start if this Jr year. Crazy. Every semester is tough, though he loves it and does well. There is no such thing as an easy class, or schedule. </p>

<p>Engineering is tough enough. IMO, reach schools were a non-issue. I wanted to set my son up for success and not failure. He was accepted at all 15 schools he applied to and is at a good match school and I am happy to say, he is at the top of his class. If he were at a reach school, I would be happy with any passing GPA in the high 2’s, but it is frustrating for the kids. I had told my son that the average engineering GPA was low and we would be happy if he got a 2.75. Acceptable in engineering. He’s been maintaining a 3.75 and seems to shine. Only undergrad doing research on campus with grad students (paid position) and had a great internship between sop and jr years and has one lined up for next summer already (company did an online interview and then flew him out for site interview). </p>

<p>I don’t know where your son is going to school, but likely a reach for my son too(?). If it is a good, well known school, it may be fine for him to be in that mid GPA range. A 2.75 from MIT of Caltech is still probably better than my sons 3.75. Look at the big picture!</p>

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<p>I am the op, and not sure if you are referring to me, but…l ummmmm…no…not MiT or Cal tech…smile…</p>

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<p>Speaking of experience with college advisors:

  1. My general advisor told me to take the highest version of college writing during my second quarter at the UC (I just took the TOEFL about 12 months before that). I dropped the class without hesitation after the first class meeting and the first TA session. I retook the class at the end of my sophomore year. There were many juniors and seniors majoring in non-STEM in my class.</p>

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<li>My majors advisor told me to take any class I wanted. The total time I talked to him was less than 2 minutes.</li>
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<p>Thank you for this posting. My son is HS senior, but I can relate to many of the postings and am scared for him next year.</p>

<p>He was accepted at a reach school ED. He has had lackluster grades, has ADD, but is doing really well his senior year. He has A+ (over 98%) in AP CalcAB, AP Computer Science, AP Physics (calculus based). He only had B in precalc. He did get 740 in math SAT. He really seems to have found his motivation and is enjoying his success this year. I hope he doesn’t lose his motivation in tough college courses.</p>

<p>Thanks for the ideas on not overduing classes in freshman year and on using summer sessions to keep up. The suggested freshman schedule at his school is calc, physics (lab), chem (lab), engineering class, humanities/social science elective, which just seems like too much. Yikes!!</p>

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<p>What is the engineering class? If it is just a one credit “what engineers do” seminar (which is fairly common for engineering freshmen), it should be no significant work other than attendance.</p>

<p>Assuming that is the case, then one math course (presumably second semester calculus if he will ace AB in high school), two lab courses, and one humanities or social studies course would seem to be a typical workload for an engineering student. Try not to have three or more lab (or other high workload courses like CS courses with programming, courses with term projects, or humanities or social studies courses with voluminous reading) in the same semester.</p>

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<p>Everyone learns at his/her own pace. That was the theme that my son’s 4th grade teacher asked his class to write a poem about. A strong student can have a heavy load or skip prerequisites to take higher classes. A weaker student or a student who needs time to adapt to a new environment to figure out what works for himself/herself should be cautious and takes conservative approach. There is no fast and hard rules. Of course students should be mindful of their major requirements to take the right classes at the right time frame. If chemistry is not a required subject for the major then it can be taken in the second year. For an EE or ME student, math and physics should be taken first. There is no point to hurt GPA to be rejected from the major department or to be suspended from college. This hurts more than graduating in 5 years.</p>

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<p>What is the engineering class? If it is just a one credit “what engineers do” seminar (which is fairly common for engineering freshmen), it should be no significant work other than attendance.</p>

<p>I used a bad description of the engineering class. It is dependent on your chosen field and S is has changed his thoughts on this recently. It likely will be either Introduction to Scientific Computing or Programming Languages and Techniques. It meets 2 or 3 days per week for 3 hrs.</p>

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<p>Those courses do sound like a significant amount of work (assignments with computer programming).</p>

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<p>Best to get a syllabus and look it over.</p>

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<p>Opinions about engineering jobs vs computer science?
Seems like companies are literally knocking down the door at computer science departments looking for good CS students. Engineering demand looks good, but seems to be less intense.
Future concerns?</p>

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You need to be more specific. CS is actually a branch of engineering (hence the CSE designation and being part of the School of Engineering at many colleges). So is electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, civil, chemical, bio, etc. Jobs are more readily available in some of these areas versus others.</p>

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<p>Don’t be afraid of the 5 year program. If you look closely at many of the schools graduation rates you will see on average that 60% of its students (across disciplines) graduate in 4 years, most need 5 to complete.</p>

<p>Having experienced a simliar situation with my 1st son, biology major, I know your pain. He took the 5 year plan. He lost his motivation due to low grades but it was too late to turn back after 2 solid years of science classes. He is not in that field today. </p>

<p>My advice, would be to have your son identify his strengths and weaknesses honestly. The maturation process is individual but the personal and financial commitment can be everlasting.</p>

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<p>Good to find a support group for engineering freshmen (and women)! I’ll share my son’s story with regard to AP credits, first semester, etc. He came in with AP credit for Calc AB, and received a 5 on the exam. He took a math placement exam at orientation and was advised to start first semester with Calc 2. He also received 800 on the SAT math. We figured it a risk, especially since he was ahead in HS math and had AP Calc junior year. He also took physics first semester, since his 4 on the AP Chemistry exam fulfilled his engineering requirement for chemistry (mechanical, not bio-medical or chemical). We hoped his solid calc foundation would be sufficient for doing well-enough in both Calc 2 and Physics first semester (he needs to maintain a 3.0 gpa to keep a scholarship). It wasn’t easy, but he received a B+ in both, and A’s in 2 engineering courses (he took 15 credits). He’s planning on 14 for second semester, and he will still be in good shape due to coming in with AP credits in English, Chemistry, Calc, and a few others. That’s probably the most valuable aspect of AP credits - it allows flexibility in a schedule without fear of falling behind.</p>

<p>I can tell you there was a huge exhale at our house upon learning his grades first semester. It’s a big adjustment for these kids: new environment, many away from home for the first time, new expectations, living with a stranger, etc. He now has gained a bit of confidence, after having a semester under his belt. Hoping he can even improve on his 3.6 gpa as he goes along… we were told that after first semester the average for engineering students at his school is 2.9! He’s pretty happy, but we know it will continue to be a challenge.</p>

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<p>With all due respect, but anyone who thinks that job prospects for CS (or CSE) are excellent and rosy colored eyeglasses are needed, should really look harder…</p>

<p>For the lucky few thousands a year that graduate from the top - give or take - schools and snag the $90k a year jobs at Google, Apple, and the like, there’s tens of thousands more Comp Sci graduates that hit the outsourcing wall head-on and learn the ins and outs of the CS / IT job market the hard way…</p>

<p>Start by separating CS, CSE, and IT jobs - they’re not quite the same. This has been the case since before I graduated; Then, find out what’s the skill mix and location and competition for each…</p>

<p>The IT market is basically hosed and has been hosed since right after the Y2K debacle. Businesses have moved to very focused, complex platforms that need a lot fewer developers, and what’s left requires tremendous specialization and skill focus. Entry level IT is not for the faint at heart, unless they can pass interviews following the Indian model (Google “Informatica Interview Questions” for details) or they are willing to work for $45K a year fixing trouble tickets…</p>

<p>The CSE market is doing OK, but again, with most companies developing offshore, not very viable. Every week or two I get calls from recruiters all promising Lead This and Architect That and only after a phone call it invariably turns out the position, while well paying, involves 90% handholding offshore resources and 10% coding. Pfeh. </p>

<p>CS, it’s a dice roll (pun intended). Some schools have smart people and do send them to the Googles of the world; a friend’s kid just got an offer there for a lot of $. But, the kid, like his dad, is a coder genius. With skills like these, sure. With more ‘typical’ skills, and corporate IT being outsourced by the day, one eventually runs out of well paying Google and Apple jobs and starts the IT merry go round, etc.</p>

<p>Perhaps I’m a bit pessimistic here, but surviving 30-40% layoffs and nearly 30 years in the industry - plus Mrs. Turbo’s 25 as an IT consultant - have taught me a few things…</p>

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<p>In a previous post, you described your location as “flyover country” with few choices of employers, so it is no surprise that the job prospects are dim for people in your area who are not willing to relocate.</p>

<p>It is different in areas where there are large clusters of computer companies (Silicon Valley, RTP, etc.). For one thing, people in these areas quickly realize that there are far more than the same three or four computer companies that people seem to list as places for CS graduates to work at.</p>

<p>Obviously, one has to be willing to live in such areas.</p>

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<p>turbo93. Thank you so much for your input. My S wants to be an engineer, its in his genes. He wants to do something in materials/nano science, but that really seems to be in the R&D stage. “present state of nanodevices and nanotechnology resembles that of semiconductor and electronics technology in 1947, when the first point contact transistor was realized, ushering in the Information Age, which blossomed only in the 1990s. We can learn from the past of the semiconductor industry that the invention of individual manufacturable and reliable devices does not immediately unleash the power of technology—that happens only when the individual devices have low fabrication costs, when they are connected together into an organized network, when the network can be connected to the outside world, and when it can be programmed and controlled to perform a certain function.”
Nano/ material sounds more like research scientist not engineering. With computer science the heavy lifting has already been done so to speak. I have heard many EE’s are switching to computer science. If you look at job postings it seems like everyone needs someone to manage, manipulate or protect their data. S is a first year so that is why the post is here. I am trying to back off and let the him follow his passion, but us old folks suffer from that realism disease.</p>

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<p>From what I’ve heard from friends, many high-tech companies in Silicon Valley are hiring. Not just Google and Facebook, but lots of other companies. (I live in Silicon Valley, so these friends are people who are working at these companies.) Zenga, Groupon, and many little startups are looking for people.</p>

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<p>“Good to find a support group for engineering freshmen (and women)!”</p>

<p>Fair enough…but I was looking for a support group for PARENTS of engineering freshmen and fresh woman…especially where there were no others in the family. </p>

<p>Son doesn’t seem to be looking outside of school for support. And he is not a fan of the five year plan as of today…because of grad school…sigh…The good news might be he is also not talking about quitting…I THINK that is good news. </p>

<p>But so glad this thread is staying alive…</p>