<p>...particularly those with majors that are pretty useless at the BA/BS level (i.e., anything but business, architecture, nursing, and engineering). What grad schools and med schools (and to a somewhat lesser extent law) look for in applicants can be very different from what employers look for (research v. industry experience, for example), so what would/did you or your kids do if they don't get into grad school straight out of undergrad, particularly if they're still interested in pursuing their original goal.</p>
<p>However, I don't mean to make this thread about me, but I'm just curious--have any of your kids given thought to what they should do if they don't get into to law/med/grad school?</p>
<p>Mine has. She would like to work at St. Jude’s doing research and try for med school again next year. Unfortunately a “numbers-qualified” friend of her’s (balanced 32 MCAT and @ 3.8 gpa) will blaze that trail this year (if they don’t get in off a couple of waitlists- which I have to believe will still happen). Nothing is certain in med school admissions. The bar keeps moving upward.</p>
<p>Even applicants with near perfect GPAs and MCATs get rejected. It happens, though it is unlikely. Applicants with scores/GPAs in Cur’s D (I was bored ), range have a 10% rejection rate from med schools… so, very unlikely, but possible. </p>
<p>For perspective, in clinical psych, a 10% acceptance rate to a PhD program is considered high.</p>
<p>And I know everyone needs a back-up plan… but how to balance money with reapplication aspirations can be a tricky question.</p>
<p>I think it’s more common now for people to take a year off from school before going to med school. Also, schools don’t really start taking people off the waitlist until now, end of May and very early June. Spots fill up fast so after about the first week of June, your chances of getting in drop precipitously.</p>
<p>I think any stat you look at for med school admissions will be outdated. It seems like it gets more and more competitive every year.</p>
<p>I told my son he can move home and hopefully get a job in a “psych-like” field if he doesn’t get accepted anywhere the first round(or funding is bad) He also likes school psychology. I also advised him to apply to more MA/EdS programs since he has much less research experience than one like yourself and his GPA is high. He can always transfer over to PhD if he wants to try that but he has to figure that out this summer. He knows a student at UConn that did that, and she got some credits transfered over. My friend’s daughter had 1/4 of your experience and is in a PhD program at a large state univ in PA. She mentioned students that had little experience in research which went against everything we both have read…you really can’t figure these things out sometimes. I think you will do fine, you are a motivated, smart student and if you aren’t locked into just very exclusive programs, might be very surprised what transpires.</p>
<p>To my knowledge… not as broadly as I would have suggested (and probably did suggest :(). But I never heard the full list. His home state school has him on the wait-list as does Baylor. Lots of movement seems to be happening right now. I really like this kid and hope for an acceptance this year , but he’s already lined up his “soft spot to land”.</p>
<p>I replied to your other thread, thinking you were just looking for a way to keep insurance if grad school didn’t happen… now I see more fully what your worries are (I love a kid with a plan B,C,D etc)
Two thoughts:
Many, many kids plan a year or two of research before starting a PhD program. One of mine did just that, working in the lab where she had done undergrad research. It helps to focus just which niche one is interested in working on in a science PhD.
If you mean to land a position as a public school counselor/psychologist, is there a route to this through getting an MS in education? I know many school districts require classroom teaching experience before taking the counselor role…</p>
<p>For my son, the third time was the charm. He applied to med school, only applying to 3 schools-our state school, his undergrad school and one other where he thought he would like to live. Did not get in to any of the three, so he attended grad school where he was an undergrad. He got a one year Master’s in the same thing he majored in. He was able to get in on short notice as the head of the program was a professor and advisor of his. No, he didn’t have a plan B, must to the dismay of his parents, but it all worked out.</p>
<p>The next year he again only applied to a couple of schools. He really only wanted to go to his state school as he didn’t want to be $200,000+ in debt. Again did not get in, but really thought he would get in off the wait list. Found a job working in a infertility clinic working full time, as wll as tutoring for the MCAT and SAT’s and working as a tech in the ER. My usually lazy, but smart son was working a 60+ hour week!</p>
<p>The next year he was admitted early to his state school. While at the time he was rejected from medical school, we all realized he did a lot of growing and maturing the year he worked. He said it was the best thing he every did. Does he wish he was going to be a fourth year medical student instead of a second year; of course he does, but he also wouldn’t trade the at the clinic for anything. He published 2 papers, something he was never interested in. He hated the thought of research and did not care that most medical school like to see it on the application. He is stubborn and is going to do what he wants to do, so mom and dad were not able to influence him in any way!</p>
<p>Speaking for pre-law only: there is a law school for everybody. My son took the LSAT this year, scored reasonably well but not amazing and certainly not as well as he would have liked – but he’s gotten all sorts of mail from law schools you never heard of offering him full tuition scholarships – so there’a a path for everyone and plenty of spaces available. It is true that the graduates of lower-ranked law schools won’t get the big-firm huge bucks jobs, but a JD is a JD – and there are plenty of government or in-house jobs with nonprofits and business where the JD is probably worth a good salary boost over other middle-management positions. Plus overall quality of life is often a lot better in those jobs – no one expects a deputy city attorney to work nights or weekends. They practice law just like everyone else, sometimes with the added “authority” of their government positions, but they get to work 40 hour weeks and avoid cutthroat competition at their workplaces.</p>
<p>Both med school and law school are pretty much a breeze compared with some of the Ph.D. programs these days, and because of the economy, things have gotten significantly worse. And, in most fields, if you are not being funded toward your Ph.D., it isn’t worth enrolling. My d. hit the jackpot - all the other students in her program the year she entered had masters degrees from other schools. She just happened to hit the right niche at the right school at the right time.</p>
<p>Of course, she may be unemployed six years from now, but at least she will already be fully innurred to a life of poverty, and will have substantial savings from her fellowship. And she won’t have any debt.</p>
<p>“Both med school and law school are pretty much a breeze compared with some of the Ph.D. programs these days, and because of the economy, things have gotten significantly worse.”</p>
<p>I’ve never heard that med school was a breeze compared to PhD programs. I think your POV is clouded by your daughter’s pursuing a PhD. PhD programs are more heterogeneous than med school programs. It really depends on the area of study and the school, but you could also say the same thing about medical school. From my experience being a medical student and stories I’ve heard from my friends who are pursuing PhDs, I wouldn’t say med school is easier.</p>
<p>Well I think one difference with med school & law school is simply that they are very structured. You attend school for a given number of years, take a fairly proscribed set of courses, study like crazy, take exams – and if you keep the grades up to a minimum at the end you get a degree. (As the old joke goes, what do you call a medical student who graduates at the bottom of the class? “Doctor”). The course to a PhD. is less certain and requires a lot of discipline on the part of the student - there are a lot of failed Ph.D. candidates who simply didn’t manage to complete their thesis – not necessarily because it was “too difficult” – but more because they ran into time management issues. Most people who flunk out of law school or medical school do it in fairly straightforward fashion… PhD candidates sometimes just kind of fade away. </p>
<p>So I would agree with fudgemaster – not “easier” at all – but I do think a little more certain in terms of outcome, assuming the student is capable and puts in the expected work.</p>
<p>I interview for a top med school. In my latest batch of interviewees, it was uncommon to see kids apply right out of college. Many do a year or two of research or go to a underserved country and work in a clinic.</p>
<p>calmom- Have you checked the job market lately? JDs are occupying the ranks of the unemployed in increasing numbers. The JD isn’t much of a salary boost in a lower level job because the employer assumes you will leave as soon as something better comes along.
It is not worth going to a lower tier law school unless you have your job all lined up and you aren’t going to come out in debt. Mid-tier law schools are also a huge risk. In fact, I am hoping in 3 or 4 years things look a lot better for grads of TOP tier law schools.</p>
<p>“I’ve never heard that med school was a breeze compared to PhD programs. I think your POV is clouded by your daughter’s pursuing a PhD. PhD programs are more heterogeneous than med school programs. It really depends on the area of study and the school, but you could also say the same thing about medical school.”</p>
<p>Of course, the only way to know would be to have ultimate outcomes. I know far more students rejected at ALL the Ph.D. programs they applied to than those rejected at all their med schools. But whether that is a representative sample, I don’t know. I have heard, but cannot reference, that slightly over 50% of med school applicants are accepted at at least one of the schools they applied to.</p>
<p>Some of this has to do with the “top tier” schools. One can attend a bottom tier med school and still be a doctor. It would be relatively unusual these days for one to attend a bottom tier Ph.D. program and then be employed full-time in academia.</p>
<p>The back up plan for most kids who don’t get into med school one year is to apply next year. And perhaps the year after that. We knew someone who applied to vet school 5 times before he finally gave up!</p>
<p>It makes sense to apply again if you didn’t apply broadly enough the first time. I went to a UCLA dog-and-pony show this spring and a current UCLA med student said that it was advisable to apply to 20-30 med schools (at $100 a pop). He said that an undergrad should have a $3-10K fund–$3K for app fees, and the rest of the money for flying out to interviews, hotel and food expenses, etc. I had no idea that this is what med school applicants went through.</p>
<p>My daughter will be one of those with, per the OP, a “pretty useless” undergrad BA. She will be applying to three PhD programs in a humanities area, all of which have told her that if they can’t fund it, they won’t offer acceptance. She’ll also apply to some master’s programs; that list hasn’t been finalized yet, but she’ll probably apply to three programs. Last but not least, she’ll be searching for a job but has no intention of moving home for a job (she’d be welcome, but we’re in MI…12.9% unemployment statewide and even higher in our area).</p>
<p>Her plan looks reasonable to me. She has extensive work experience which will strengthen her employment search, and she’s more than willing to start at the bottom of the ladder. Her goal for employment has less to do with the position than the employer, and she’s been keeping a list of potential employers since her freshman year in college. </p>
<p>Expanding her PhD app list would probably make little sense, since there are less than 20 PhD programs for her desired field in the US. She might as well shoot for the programs which have the sub-specialities she wants and the faculty with whom she wants to study. She knows it’s a huge long-shot since these programs all accept less than 10% of applicants, but she doesn’t see the point in compromising just for the sake of accceptance into any PhD program.</p>
<p>The master’s programs are proving harder to narrow down, but her current profs are proving to be a huge asset in helping her find programs which might fit her needs. The bottom line for us, her parents, is that we fully expect to provide some financial support no matter what path she follows. It may take the form of paying her undergrad student loans (less than 15K by the time she graduates), or we might have to subsidize her health insurance payments (assuming she can even get decent coverage, since she has a pre-exisiting condition). Or we may end up giving her my car, if she ends up someplace without public transportation. We’ll make those decisions after her graduation next year, but she knows the possibilities in broad strokes. The one thing we DON’T want her to do is make decisions for her future based on financial restrictions rather than aspirations. She’s a pragmatic idealist at heart, so I have faith that she’ll figure out the best path.</p>
<p>I’d suggest you look at counseling psych programs as well as clinical psych. Not necessarily easier to get into, but it would broaden your field. That’s how I was trained and I think it might even be better preparation for school psych work that a clinical program. My program only had 8 students, so I suppose the AR was low, but the more options you look at, the better your odds.</p>
), range have a 10% rejection rate from med schools… so, very unlikely, but possible. </p>