Parents of the Class of 2012

Colleges and Universities A-Z Merchant Marine Academy - Kings Point
21

<p>I’m not trying to argue, because I agree with most of what you say.</p>

<p>I in no way advocate a marginalization of the regiment. Like I said, it has its place and of course is deeply rooted in the school. There are many things that I think it teaches well (attention to detail, small unit leadership, etc). But there is still much to be desired.</p>

<p>My biggest beef is that the regimental system (as it stands now, at least from my experience) is broken. On one side, we are taught in our academic settings and while out at sea to think things through, use common sense and develop yourself as a smart leader. On the regimental side, the emphasis is on conformity, instant reaction and little to no rational thought - just do as you’re told and don’t question anything, even for first-classmen who should be having their leadership skills blossoming at this point. I am still told when I can and can’t wear my jacket outside, even though I am 22 years old. The person telling me this is emphasizing me to “use common sense” - which is exactly what I’m doing (ie: it’s not raining/cold outside so I don’t need my jacket). Now, is that just “part of the deal”? Perhaps so, but the mentality behind it is driving the regiment and that is why a good number of mids have lost faith in it. </p>

<p>I think the taxpayers would rather see their money go towards producing smart leaders who are great decision-makers and can think on their feet. My belief is that’s a trait of quality leadership in both the civilian and military worlds. I don’t think it comes from blindly following orders and regulations just because that’s the way it is, while at the same time handcuffing the hands of the people who are supposedly allowed to establish/modify those rules and regulations. On somewhat of a sidenote (and I don’t mean to turn this political), I personally believe that bureaucracy and paper-pushers will heavily contribute to the downfall of our society, whenever that may be. Rational thought needs to be reiterated for the next generation. </p>

<p>A great example is the waterfront watch system. Midshipmen should know certain things about the vessels down there and how to react in different situations. If the wind were to suddenly come up to 50kts and a few lines on the ship part under the load, what should you do as the sole watschstander? The regimental system, on paper, doesn’t care whether you know the answer to this or not, but god forbid you forget what the USMC-derived 9th General Order is verbatim (I don’t remember it). </p>

<p>Now, don’t get me wrong. I do my best to stay integrated with the system and follow the rules because I respect the fact that others have gone through it. Who am I to cast it aside because I think I’m better? That’s not it at all. I just think that with all of the potential this place has, it can be improved. Basically, don’t dismiss the regimental system, but make it smarter. There certainly is room for improvement. It’s way too late for my class to do this, but I hope other classes (along with the administration) can. The biggest benefit coming out of the regimental system right now is that we can see what doesn’t work so we don’t do that when we get the opportunity to. Some people may say then that the system has done its job and that’s exactly what the point is, but that mentality is a dangerous teeter over the edge of a cliff, to me, because it never allows for success or development to see what does work.</p>

<p>The first step, though, needs to be an establishment of what EXACTLY the mission of the school is. That way, the academic and regimental sides can both contribute to a better development of the students.</p>

22

<p>The regimental system definitely has its place, but just like everything else in life there is always room for improvement. The biggest and most obvious place I can find to start is with the company officers. The system for that group of people is broken. There should not be people sitting in those positions for close to ten years or more. I would love to see those positions become active duty billets as I think the leadership skills that could be brought by active duty line officers would be a great benefit. The reason this likely would not happen is the Navy wouldn’t fund the billets.</p>

<p>As to the mention of the jacket: are you speaking for all day long or for colors and lunch muster? If you are speaking towards formations then yes, you should be told what to wear when. If you are talking about other parts of the day then why are they harassing you when you are still in UOD even if you add a jacket?</p>

23

<p>Yes, of course for colors and lunch muster everyone should be in the specified UOD. That makes obvious sense - I don’t think anyone disagrees with that.</p>

<p>The problem days are the ones when it’s colder in the morning and they specify the UOD with reefer coats, or it’s raining and we need to wear the raincoats - no problem. By lunch or afternoon, it has warmed up or cleared up enough that I (and many others) don’t need to drag the reefer or raincoat around, but prefer to wear our A-Jackets (or no jacket at all), especially if I’m only going outside for 50 feet. Some people think that is a no-no and we get scolded for it and are told to “use common sense”. Maybe their idea of common sense is to just do it so you don’t get in trouble… i dont know… Still trying to figure that one out…!</p>

<p>If the UOD is officially changed, this is typically done at lunch. There is no “legal” way to change your outerwear between colors and lunch, regardless of the weather. </p>

<p>Was it like this back in '98-'01??</p>

24

<p>No, definitely not. The announcement for UOD was made just before colors and if it was anything with jackets/reefers/etc then that was for musters. You could wear them or not between those times. Only difference would be for the plebes as to march in a section everyone needs to be the same. </p>

<p>We even had some of the women who would change into skirts between musters because they liked them better than the pants.</p>

25

<p>I think that the new administration is trying to improve both the academics and the regiment. First thing the Admiral told the NY parents’ club was that he reordered the mission statement of the school - he placed in order of importance first, the mission to graduate licensed mariner officers. But he also told the parents that by scaling back on liberty there will be more time for regimental training. So he is trying to cover both bases. As to the state schools, they do received Federal funds now, about $10,000 per student. Also, in-state tuition is about $20,000 per student at SUNY Maritime, for example (over and above the Federal monies they receive) and that includes 3 summer cruises where the entire regiment goes to sea for 2 months together with the faculty. Another fact - the passing rate on the licensing exam is lower for the state institutions as compared to USMMA.</p>

26

<p>Also the six state academies produce approx. 20% of the the licensced officers that have a military obligation (USNR) to the country. USMMA produces Aprox. 80 % of said officers. I got these stats from the “expect more from gov. site.” Also the report states that in a full moblization situation both the state schools and USMMA. Would provide insufficient officers for the country’s defense need’s</p>

27

<p>“every upperclassman will spend more time on campus (read less liberty) helping and training plebes and the underclassmen. With less liberty, there will be more time for passing along the important elements of the regimental system without cutting into time during the week that should be devoted to academics.”</p>

<p>This may seem like a good idea but in reality I can see it failing. The reason behind it is that we the upperclass feel that they have spent the time and effort in their previous years at the Academy to be given certain privilages. When these privilages are reduced most upperclassman will be outraged. We will not share our “thoughts and ideas” about the regiment to the plebes. We will be in our rooms sleeping or trying to enjoy our (now reduced) time to decompress. That is what the weekend is for: a time to decompress from the week, not teach plebes the importance of the regiment. I would rather spend my time visiting a museum in the city, seeing a friend from high school, or enjoying the beach (weather permitting) than talk about the regimental system. The regiment is the least important of the different aspects of the Academy. You can only tell a plebe “this is how you shine your shoes, this is how you make a bed, this is how you square… blah blah blah blah.” The idea that we will pass on helpful information about the regiment to the plebes is ridiculous. I know I speak for most of the upperclass when I say I want my weekend in order to relax/decompress rather than practice for a parade that only 3 people and a squirrel show up to. That is what most of our Reg Periods are… parade practices and “death by powerpoint” presentation on random material. Morale will drop even further if the new lib policy takes effect. If it does take place then i will be setting up Airsoft TMs for my team every weekend in order to give them a chance to decompress that they deserve.</p>

<p>On a side note. Information we got today at an assembly with the Commandant:</p>

<p>The new Sup is redesigning Indoc. There is a desire for approx. 100 DIs/OICs… while using the least amount of 2012 as possible. This means that 2010 and 2011A-Split (because they dont want to bring back people from sea) will bear most of this burden. You are able to volunteer to be a DI or there is a good chance that you will be volun-told. And it has now been decided that paying DIs/OICs is “illegal”… so no pay for any Indoc workers. The overall feeling from the other M/N at the assembly was absolute disgust and some cases of outrage. We want our summers to do what we want. I have found out that I am on the “recommended” list for a DI billet because i attend Marine Ops. I was at summer school last year (REPRESENTING THE PINK SHIRTS!!!) and i saw many of my fellow 2011s go from easy-going guys/gals to uptight/angry tools with superinflated egos (because they now have power… the term is “power trip” or “ego trip”). I am sure that there will be a number of 2011 who volunteer for DI billets… But I will not be one of them. </p>

<p>P.S. I apologize for any errors in spelling or grammar. I am working on Strength of Materials while typing this.</p>

28

<p>Lucky we live in a free country. If you dont like it leave. You are being educated at the tax payers expense. If you want a less regimented college experience go to a state maritime academy.</p>

29

<p>I love the academy. I love the opportunities it gives me. The problem with the regiment is that it is sometimes given the most importance (when in fact it is the lowest). Don’t for a second think that I am an ungrateful M/N who is just using the academy at tax payers expense. I have no problem with resigning my normal life in order to attend a service academy. In all seriousness a service academy is the best place for me, I have visited some of my friends’ colleges and I hate it because there because it doesnt compare to what I go through. I am annoyed at the fact that the higherups volun-tell people (against their will) to give up their summer (and i remind you that I have not had a summer at home). That and I was just pointing out that the “keep the upperclassmen here to give advice to the plebes” idea is doomed to fail. I am providing a realist view of the situation. I am taking what I and every other 3/c M/N that I am friends with believe and posting it.</p>

30

<p>They were freaking paying the DI’s? When did that start? That is ridiculous to even imagine. The only thing I ever got for working two of the Indocs was a meal at the now closed Bennigan’s.</p>

31

<p>the term “pay” being loosely defined. It wasn’t a lot of money (i think they payed them in dimes… just kidding). But they did get paid a small amount ($300).</p>

32

<p>SomeRandom shares some important information. But what I take away in part is that some of the 4/Cs who became DIs went on a power trip. (this happens at all the academies)</p>

<p>I’d suspect (NO official information, just opinion) that Admin found some real GEMS in D/Is, but some who fell victim to the ‘power trip’. Sounds like they want another year of maturity under the belts of mids, and maybe the Sea Year experience. this can give these 2010/2011’s a perspective that the other mids (who had not gone to sea yet) did not have… and could not share with the mids.
This will be good news for the 2013 Plebe Candidates.</p>

33

<p>hahah. I know, kp2001… these new kids have it sooo much easier :slight_smile:
It is just the way of things :wink: (I hope they realize how ‘easy’ they have it now)…</p>

34

<p>Hmmm, these changes could definitely affect our summer plans. Our daughter was planning to apply to be a D/I. She has also had upperclassmen urging her to do it. So we were resigned to her not coming home this summer, even though she is A split. (It’s just not worth the jet lag for one week or less.) </p>

<p>I can understand the desire to have more maturity among the D/I’s. It can be very tempting to go an a power trip and pass on a miserable experience when you are so close to your own Indoc experience. Perhaps it’s not necessary to eliminate the 4/Cs, but it would be good to pair them with an upperclassman with a bit more experience and maturity. No pay now? I know our daughter was looking forward to just a little bit of extra cash in her pockets. It really wasn’t much, maybe $100 a week. Oh well, such is life. </p>

<p>On the subject of reducing liberty for more training, it could be good or bad depending on how it is implemented. The training would need to be something meaningful. Just another PT session or parade practice isn’t going to change anything. However, I do think the 1/C have to take some responsibility for the state of readiness of 2012 for recognition. If plebes aren’t greeting and plebes aren’t squaring, it’s because they were not consistently corrected for that from the beginning. There will always be some who won’t comply if they can get away with it. Once that discipline starts to slip, it’s hard to get them to take you seriously later. And they are certainly not going to pay any attention to their fellow plebes who try to get them to do it! Meanwhile, those who are putting forth the effort get very frustrated. </p>

<p>Change will always cause unhappiness. Those who looked forward to some privilege or event will be frustrated to have the rules change just as they get there. But change that is implemented with some common sense can be a good a thing. It is simply impossible to measure that until it has been in place long enough to actually have an effect.</p>

35

<p>KPMom2012:</p>

<p>This is not to say that they will not be using any 2012 at all, the number will just be far less than the amount of 2011 used last year. If your daughter really wants to be a DI then I think that they should be allowed to do it. The dropping of the pay will also weed out the M/N who wanted to be a DI for the privileges (increased class rates and pay). The problem last year was that many of the 2011 M/N were placed into the higher-up DI slots (SDI and EDI positions), I think that 4/c are an ok fit for the ADI position (not a lot of leadership requirements).</p>

<p>(and i apologize for my lack of spell-check in my 2221 post)</p>

36

<p>Man… I can’t help but get sucked into these debates… and I know better since they are all based on comments from people so far removed from the actual decision makers that it is impossible to figure out what is really going on. The Academy doesn’t help by not addressing the reasons why they do what they do in public very often, but then again they don’t have to either…</p>

<p>My two cents:</p>

<p>The order of importance is - Academics, Regiment, Sports (period) - and sports is a waaaaaay distant third - to suggest sports comes before the Regiment is something only a midshipmen would do. No offense towards those mids who don’t see it this way, but they are too close to the trees to see the forest… No one will remember what sport you played ten years from now - no one is going to make it to the big leagues (oh yea there was that guy in 94…) - if they do - they shafted the taxpayer out of $250K. No one is going to hire you because you were an All American.</p>

<p>Here’s the deal - the tax payer is paying for a service - that service is “strategic sealift in times of national emergency” and a core of highly trainined specialist for the Maritime Industry moving goods from A to B. As a side benefit the tax payer also gets a decent number of active duty folks with a different skill set that DoD finds very valuable, and a bunch of reservist (who the Navy finds kind of useful, but can’t really figure out how to employ efficiently - another topic all together).</p>

<p>In exchange for signing up to provide the this sealift, graduates get to hold down a civilian job - since our peactime sealift needs are usually met with full time help (many/most of which are Kings Pointers). Here is the important part - based on the fact that I’ve been out for more than 10 years - employers don’t hire Kings Pointers becuase of the sport they played, or the fact that they got an A in chemistry either - they hire Kings Pointers becuase they get the job done and have the best reputation going with respect to discipline and work ethic. Those skills, those traits, and that reputation that make KPers different (and better in most respects) are based on the product The Regiment churns out.</p>

<p>The Regiment is designed to be a pain in the ass. You should be tired in school, you should be stressed out, you should be forced to make tough calls… because that’s life and that’s what you’re going to be paid to do as a project manager or a Master Mariner or a Major in the Marine Corps.</p>

<p>The Regiment needs Sports and Academics as a competing distraction… With unlimited time, anyone could get an A in Calculus… but being able to get a B in Calc, while playing tennis and golf, while being a section leader - marching in the parade when you want be cramming for the big test… now that is the kind of education employers are looking for.</p>

<p>I have to admit the access parents have today is unprecidented… But I remember pushy parents my first class year… one was a lawyer for the ACLU - man… the school was on the verge of a lawsuit for everything… “this isn’t fair, that isn’t fair…” - the Academy position was “life isn’t fair”.</p>

<p>So, the Academy is going to do what it needs to do… Life in the Regiment swings from too hard to too soft - most of the time it is about right. Every graduating class thinks the plebe class got it way too easy. More is asked from Mids today academically and professionally (STCW, Licencing), but in the 1950’s upper classmen used to walk around with rubber hoses - beating plebes for not squaring… so, things change.</p>

<p>I hope the Academy does not forget the importance of the Regiment and the life lessons it teaches - I hope the parents let their kids vent without calling the principal - and I hope that the midshipmen have the common sense to trust that a program that has worked for nearly three quarters of a century may actually be in their best interest even when they can’t see the logic, knowing that alumni (that means people who have walked in their shoes) believe in the course as set.</p>

<p>Thanks for letting me vent…</p>

<p>USMMECOM
[url=<a href=“http://www.cafepress.com/USMMAonline]KPStore[/url”>http://www.cafepress.com/USMMAonline]KPStore[/url</a>]</p>

<p>“Paying midshipmen to be DIs - oh, my God…”</p>

37

<p>Sir/Ms., you said everything that needs to be said on the topic at hand. You are absolutely 100% correct. You have the neccesary personal experience, knowledge and wisdom to give an informative and useful opinion. I hope everyone takes it to heart, especially my Midn.</p>

38

<p>FOURTH CLASS SYSTEM</p>

<p>I’d like to chime in with my two cents on the 4th Class System, as I
experienced it. My plebe year was during 79-80 and, although it was
probably not as draconian as that of the more senior members of this forum,
it appears to be considerably different from what exists today. As I went
through it, I did not understand how cutting a pie into nine equal pieces
would help an officer lead soldiers into battle. The myriad of disjointed
memorizations, ludicrous tasks and perpetual panic mode seemed to have very
little to do with the profession of arms. I maintained this attitude
throughout my upper class years and I was definitely not a flame, although
fairly stern and consistent. I kept this perspective as a junior officer .
right up to the moment I commanded a cavalry troop in the Gulf War.</p>

<p>One night, at around 0100, we conducted a passage of lines to assault an
airfield. We had gone almost 60 hours without sleep and it was raining with
a vengeance (yes, rain in the desert . lots of it.) Our own artillery was
falling short and landing amongst us. One of my Platoon Leaders was heading
off in a tangent to the direction he should have been following. The
squadron main body was drifting too far North. My driver was heading
straight for a ravine. A tank in my 4th Platoon threw a track, and we found
ourselves in the middle of one of our own DPICM minefields. The objective
was spotted on our right flank (instead of in front of us, where it should
have been.) Almost no maps existed for our area of operations, and my boss
was perpetually screaming for me to change to his frequency (an
impossibility with the wonderfully designed, single-transmitter command
tanks.) A half dozen spot reports were coming in from my troops (all
critical.) My INTEL NCO had a critical update, my XO had a critical update,
my OPS NCO had a critical update, my 1SG had a critical update, my gunner
had spotted dismounts, and the regimental commander was forward with us
adding his own personal guidance. Visibility was almost zero. There was a
suspected use of chemical weapons. Regimental S-2 reported 500 heavily
armed Republican Guards on our objective (later determined to be a squad of
American engineers,) and I had a moderate to severe case of dysentery.</p>

<p>It was during this little slice of heaven (of all places) that the 4th Class
System was illuminated to me in all its glory. Its goal was not harassment,
ridicule, or punishment. Its goal was to train the neural network to deal
with an overwhelming amount of disjointed information, quickly process that
information, categorize it, and make rapid, sound decisions. At that
moment, I would have gladly given a month’s pay to the genius who devised
the 4th Class System. It provided me with a priceless gift to sort the
significant from the insignificant and do my job in a much better fashion.
From my perspective, THAT is the rationale behind the system. It trains
your brain in a non-lethal environment to sort through the mess, bring some
order to it and continue functioning. It is an extremely nasty world out
there, and part of the Academy’s mission is to train graduates to survive
and excel in that world. We are NOT doing the graduates any favors by
sugarcoating things and putting a happy face on everything. There is still
plenty of unadulterated evil, brute force, and chaos to go around.
Pretending it isn’t there will not make it go away. I sincerely hope that
there are enough qualified people to deal with the future chaos and brute
force quickly and effectively enough to protect our interests and keep it
off our shores. Don’t dismiss the 4th Class System as an archaic
anachronism. I have found it to be one the most valuable training programs
I have ever undergone.</p>

<p>Just my 2 cents .</p>

<p>Bo Friesen
Major, U. S. Army, USMA '83</p>

<p>This was posted about a year ago and I thought might help.</p>