And as an aside , just a reminder, each child’s journey is different . Comparison is the thief of joy. Comparing your child to another can make for a very sad child and parent.
Or, put another way, there are trajectories across a community, and trajectories for an individual.
As someone trained in a social science that has traditionally had a strong—a really strong—focus on analyzing the behavior of communities, but whose research has ended up focusing most strongly on individuals’ behaviors, I feel pretty confident in saying that part of what we’re dealing with here is the problem that group trends (e.g., graduation rates for students who got a 3.2 in high school) can be completely valid, but those trends are completely nonpredictive of any individual who falls within that group.
My own story: I had a 3.1 in high school, followed by a 3.1 in my undergrad work. I also hold a PhD from an Ivy, and am tenured faculty.
Looked at purely from a community level, those things don’t go together. I know a number of other individuals aside from myself, however, for whom input stats and output achievements of that nature do.
@mamalion It likely won’t make any difference to your daughter if a certain percentage of her peers don’t graduate in x number of years. She will be taking classes with kids who are still in school and those classes won’t be half empty.
My sophomore is living off-campus with two roommates who will skew the retention rates. One got a job as an assistant chef, loved it, and he is saving for culinary school, and the other has flaky parents who couldn’t pay her tuition this time around, so she is working full time this semester. They are not keeping my kid from getting an education. My D gets up, goes to class with the other kids in her major, does her hw, is involved with campus activities, etc.
I hadn’t known that about transferring, but it’s making a lot of sense. A lot of the “lower” tier schools are being talked about as somewhere you go to, get good grades, and transfer out to where you really wanted to go. I will have to rethink my ideas about a couple of schools I had discounted.
My B student who would fit on this thread will graduate outside the 4 year period, either in 8 semesters or 9, but she took a semester off to work at Disney so academic calendar will be 4.5 or 5 years. It was her dream (my nightmare) and she did it. She’s also changed majors 3 times. I wanted her to figure it out on her own but let her take too many courses without direction. She could finish in 8 semesters if she took a math class this summer but she doesn’t want to. I guess I don’t think it is that big a deal. She won’t have a $1500 scholarship for that last semester, so she’ll have to earn that this summer and pay it herself.
She has some LD due to premature birth, but doesn’t receive any services. Her entire life she’s reached milestones about a year late, and college is no different. She’s doing a lot better as a junior and senior than she did as a freshman.
So other than screwing up the data for the school and graduating outside the 4 year period, who cares that it is taking her 5 calendar years and 9 semesters? She might pick up a minor with those extra credits. She’s going to do an internship which I think will be very good for her. It’s not wasted time.
I think the school could have been a little firmer in advising and requiring certain classes to be taken in sequence but they were treating her like an adult who could make her own decisions or walk into an office and ask for help.
Just wrapped visits at Allegheny, Wooster and Earlham. S liked them all but is leaning slightly toward Allegheny. We got to meet with the head of the CS department who is both passionate and fun about his teaching and that made a strong favorable impression. Admissions was very reassuring about how holistic their process is, “not just about numbers.” They made S feel that he had a good chance at being fairly considered despite his GPA.
Wooster’s admissions was a well-oiled machine. Allegheny was busy but Wooster was overrun with visiting kids. S got the impression that Wooster is tougher and has more sporty type kids (a negative) than the other two. The admissions interviewer was delightful and the guides were an incredibly diverse and lovely group of intelligent and well-spoken young people. The kids seemed a bit intense though which made S a little nervous. The average GPA of the admitted students cited by the interviewer, 3.7, really discouraged him as well.
Earlham was quite the contrast-our tour guide showed us around the campus in very scrubby sweats and an old sweatshirt. He was nice and friendly as can be (“He’s so chill!” per S) but strangely uninformed on many standard tour questions. The whole campus vibe was very, very relaxed. The faculty seems flexible and supportive but I can also easily see S learning to procrastinate everything there if given half a chance to do so. Allegheny really seemed a happy medium between the more driven Wooster and the ultra-relaxed Earlham. The Earlham guides who took us to lunch were delightful and the kids on campus seemed a more tight knit group that at Wooster and Allegheny. However, all three places came across friendly and open-kids sitting in groups and talking at lunch, very few sunk into technology by themselves.
@twoinanddone – I love how you said “it was her dream.” And it is her path. Not YOUR path. Not MY path. But her path. Awesome for her! And awesome parenting by you.
@fwtxmom, when I toured Earlham with my D17, it also left me (and D19, who was tagging along) a bit cold, but my D17 really, really liked how astonishingly friendly (in a chill way) everyone was. They have some (mild) retention issues, and I think it’s because fit really is an incredibly important thing there—if it’s a good fit, it’ll be amazing, but if not then there can be big problems.
I just wanted to post to say that I follow these threads to read about all of the interesting kids and where they may eventually end up with their school choices. I like following their journey and reading about all of the different schools they are considering.
Also to note, I was a pretty poor HS and mediocre college student by academic standards and I turned out OK in real life. I was never able to really focus on schoolwork, but in my career I was able to work hard, efficiently and effectively and I enjoyed learning about the industry I worked in. All of your kids are smart with great interests and they. will do fine!!
@fwtxmom, thanks for the report. It’s interesting that you felt Wooster seemed more intense and sporty than Allegheny; I’ve always heard that was more Allegheny’s reputation (especially the sporty part), which was one reason we haven’t bothered to tour. Wooster is high on my son’s list, in part because it seemed more relaxed than other LACs we visited. In fact, he was beaming after his interview because when he asked the student to describe the culture, she said something along the lines of, “We’re focused on our classes, but not to the point of excluding other things. In general, students here would rather get a B and be involved in a bunch of other activities, than do nothing else but study in order to get an A.” I guess this just shows that it really depends on who you talk to and their personal interpretation about the “vibe”! (And now I know to be sure to ask more questions when we go back for a follow up visit senior year.)
That said, my daughter had two friends who went to Wooster (graduated last year), and neither seemed to be particularly intense. One was a high achieving high school student, but a bit socially awkward, and he reportedly made numerous friends while there. The other was more of a B+ student, fairly laid back, and he also thrived. They were both in marching band, which probably helped them find their tribe. We were a bit worried about them attending the same school, since they were best friends in high school, and we were afraid they would only socialize with each other, but that turned out not to be the case. They stayed friendly, but each found a different circle of friends, as well, which is the best of both worlds. Also, for what it’s worth, both sets of parents have independently told me that they loved the vibe on campus because “everyone is so nice there!” But based on your interpretation, I’m going to ask some more academic-type questions of the parents of the B+ high school student, to get their take on it.
As for Earlham … oh, Earlham. This is so in keeping with what we know of it, LOL. I’ve kind of kept Earlham in my back pocket with my S19 for the reasons you expressed – I think it could be a good social fit, but I worry that it might almost be too laid back for him to ever get his work done, haha. Also, Earlham isn’t know for their strength in the sciences, which is what my son is interested in. That said, a neighbor’s son – a high-stat NMF – was very happy at Earlham and is now in grad school in bio? math? I can’t recall, but it’s STEM related, and he’s excelling, so maybe we should at least take a look at it. His dad said he got tons of personal attention from the science faculty (in part because he was such a strong student and they were delighted to work with him.) My son does have a day off school later this month … maybe it’s worth doing a tour, just to see. Hmm.
Is Beloit on your list? Based on our tour, you may find it to be that happy medium between Wooster and Earlham. Laid back and super friendly, but well organized at the same time. It’s #1 on my list for my son right now (and I think his, too), though my husband preferred Wooster and Kalamazoo.
@kab2kab Both Beloit and Lawrence only have two profs in computer science. I feel that four is kind of the tipping point of enough. It’s too bad because I love what I read about both of them. As to Wooster, I think the singular focus on research with 90 page papers mentioned as the final product just made him feel out of his league. They talk up the big project so much. S is dyslexic so the idea of a 90 page paper is pretty horrifying to him even though I pointed out that he could do a computer program or an app or similar in CS.
Our guide also told us that 30% of the kids are in competition athletics and 60% did intramural. S turned to me wide-eyed and mouthed “90% sports?” Maybe that was a miscommunication? The math kids we sat with at lunch certainly were not sporty. I personally really loved Wooster so I will keep it bobbing around. If we can get a good offer there he can visit again.
@fwtxmom What was the area like around Allegheny? We have it on our list, but there’s no way to go see it before applying so any info you can give me about the school would be much appreciated. 
@DCNatFan we toured Clemson last Friday. These are the stats that we were given by admission 99% of their freshman ranked in the top 50%, 83% in the top 20% and 59% in the top 10% . Even if your school does not rank, it probably includes what decile your student falls into on their report they sent to Clemson. The 50th percentile for SAT is 1230-1390, ACT 27-31. I will say that each year , acceptances become more competitive . My DS 16 was granted provisional acceptance as a junior based on test scores, rank and GPA. They no longer offer that. More and more high stats students from our state are being offered the Bridge to Clemson program rather than direct admission. There is a push by the residents of SC for them to increase the number of instate acceptances . Rumor has it that it may be happening as soon as next year. Feel free to PM me with any questions.
@megan12 the town of Meadville is small. I don’t know where kids go to shop or what they might do in the town. We’ve visited twice and haven’t seen a Target or anything like that. They do have some cute-ish restaurants. The campus is very nice, and I think it’s a great school. I’m embarrassed to admit it, but my daughter and I visited 40 schools over the last few years (in my defense, we live in New England where there are a TON of colleges, and many were seen while on vacation or traveling to family, etc. Also, my daughter pretty much knew after the first 5-10 that she wanted an LAC in the northeast, and gosh, there are a lot of them!) Allegheny left us with the best overall impression. Every interaction, be it with the administration, professors, students, was vert warm and welcoming. And their love for what they do really shines through. They also are very generous with merit aid. My daughter is in the midst of choosing her school for next year, and Allegheny is still in the top 3. Its one drawback for us is that it’s 8 hours away. I’m happy to answer any questions you might have about Allegheny.
@megan12 directly around Allegheny is older Meadville full of lovely old Victorian and turn of the century houses. We stayed in that area in a B&B. We were able to walk to the college in 10 minutes. Sadly the lovely houses have mostly fallen into disrepair. We felt totally safe in the area but it was kind of sad with a few scruffier looking people walking about. A five minute walk in the opposite direction lands you in a nice business district with restored old buildings and historic looking churches, possibly the downtown? I never saw the courthouse but the businesses and churches clustered around a little park with a large statue.
We ate out three times and the restaurants were middling to pretty good. I must say we didn’t fully explore the town past the college where I suspect the newer and nicer houses would be found. I hope this helps. It’s really quite a small town but I think it does have Wal-mart.
@kab2kab, in defense of science programs at Earlham: EC is among the top colleges/universities in the country in percentage of graduates who go on to complete the PhD. Life sciences is particularly notable, where Earlham ranks 12th out of 1533 institutions (top 0.8%).
I think this speaks to the quality of Earlham’s programs. As someone who sits on graduate admission committees in both the chemical and biological sciences at an R1 university, I can state that Earlham is respected in the sciences.
I do agree with @fwtxmom that Earlham has a super chill vibe. Scrubby sweats are standard daily wear for many students.
Allegheny College is only 45 minutes from Erie and Presque Isle. Erie is a small city (with Gannon and PSU-Behrend, and probably other colleges) so some decent activities for young people there. Also, Presque Isle is my favorite state park in PA. Phenomenal place.
@carolinamom2boys Thanks for the information. What was your overall impression of the school? My understanding is that they also admit by major so that explain the SAT range. College of Education is 1237 and Engineering/CS is 1341.
I’ve also read that it makes sense to apply as early as possible and since no essay is required the application process is rather simple.
Did they discuss merit aid and stats needed?
@DCNatFan info regarding scholarships can be found on their website under freshman scholarships . Their merit seems to have dropped considerably since last year . Applications open Aug 1. They determine housing priority based on application date. It has great school spirit . Academics are good. Friendly students . It’s DS19’s second choice, but he will never be accepted with his test scores.
@microbial40 – “Earlham is respected in the sciences.”
That is great to hear; thank you! Other than our friend whose son went there – who mentioned he had two different STEM profs come up to him at graduation and say, “Your son is the best student I’ve had in twenty years” – everyone else we know who went there was focused on the humanities. My son is interested in all STEM except life sciences, but from your comments, I think we’ll definitely give it another look. As we move into the homestretch of 11th grade, my increasingly stressed out son would probably really appreciate a “super chill vibe” right about now …