D21 starts one of her dual credit classes this week at the local state college. They have been treating her like their undergrads - she went in and did her COVID test Friday, and she’ll start via Zoom until her results are in. She’ll then attend in person with the other undergrads (all her dual credit classes have always been at the colleges with the college students). Which mask she will wear is still up in the air. Her father wants kn95, I want cloth masks with filters, the Professor is giving clear face masks. The professor and I have been in contact about which mask D21 can wear (before someone with negative assumptions makes a comment, it is necessary for me, the parent, to communicate with the prof and administration when it comes to COVID issues as D21 is not yet 18 and the college policy is to make those kinds of decisions with the parent and not the underage student…D21 has always communicated with her professors on her own about every other thing…I have never before communicated with one of her professors before about anything).
The other college where she takes courses is all online except for her physics lab.
We are thinking of not bothering with the Sept SAT. The thought of her sitting for four hours in one room with tons of other kids makes her father extremely nervous and the stress of his fear is weighing on D21. She is halfway through submitting her college apps, and so far there are only two schools where she is going test optional. Her current scores meet at least the 50th percentile mark for everything else.
Regarding gap years because of COVID - nope, not for D21. D21 has grown up taking every kind of course one can imagine. Online, in-person, hybrid, group studies, independent studies, etc. She is and always has been proactive in reaching out to other students to create online study groups if the class itself doesn’t provide them. She is used to adapting to all different learning platforms. The few things one can do in a gap year during COVID she can do while she is actually in school continuing her education (outdoor activities, writing, online internships, etc). Also, she wants to be part of a community/cohort that has a “we’re all in this together” kind of feel. So if the pandemic continues through fall of 2021, she will roll with the punches and adapt as needed. She has no desire to take a gap year (at least, not for COVID reasons…if she could travel and learn overseas and do all the things a gap year normally offers, then she might think about it…but even then, I don’t think she would want one).
Here’s an interesting observation, with related question. So, we live in an area FILLED with PhD scientists (several labs here). Their kids almost all go to big highly ranked (for STEM, and overall) OOS state universities, not privates. I’ve asked a couple about this and they say there’s much higher level/cutting edge research being done. What do you all think? Is this the better route for STEM?
I know our local state university (TTU) has one of the top Pulsed Power(Electrical Engineering) programs in the world. Your labs employ many of them. The pulsed power program is really the crown jewel of all of TTU’s engineering programs as evidenced by their research money and vast labs on campus.
@havenoidea are undergrads involved in that research?
The other thing to think about is that at elite schools or big state schools is that STEM classes are typically weed out classes. You’ll get a lot more support and be less likely to fall though the cracks at an LAC. And students get research opportunities because there are no grad students. I don’t know enough to talk about “cutting edge” research but I’m guessing that, if it’s that cutting edge at a large school, the grad students are getting that work. I could be wrong.
A LOT of kids do very well from LACs if they are STEM. It’s a misconception that LACs churn out only history or political science majors.
@TVBingeWatcher2 that’s great. If a student is a strong STEM student, has strong executive functioning skills, and can advocate for themselves then it seems a large university is a great place to be. Many, many kids move out of engineering and pre-med after one or two semesters at big universities, though, so it’s good to know what you’re getting into.
I know a lot of kids who are strong STEM in high school and then struggle at big universities in those classes. They move faster and don’t have a ton of support sometimes. It’s good to ask questions about that when looking at schools.
it is true about the weed out classes for STEM classes. I don’t see strong academically prepared students having trouble navigating and advocating for themselves. Especially if they had the rigor in high school, most will be fine. I don’t see D having trouble navigating the waters of a large state university’s engineering program.
@TVBingeWatcher2 i would still ask a lot of questions. Who teaches these classes? How big are they? How often do break out groups meet and how big are they and who teaches those? Do kids take advantage of office hours with the prof or the break out group grad student? I know a lot of kids from very strong high schools that indeed did not make it to the third semester of engineering. I could tell quite a few detailed stories but let’s just say they had little support even when they reached out or their grad student was hard to understand or not available much. I would find students in the major and ask a lot of questions. Kids with 5s on AP science and math tests fail out of these programs all of the time.
@homerdog all good advice, I personally hang out on Reddit for all the schools on D’s radar and including TAMU and UT and ask the engineering kids for their advice all the time. (boy can you learn a lot down rabbit holes) Nothing better than getting the 411 from the kids in the thick of it.
And may I ask what is a child supposed to do if they have financial limitations such as my D and those elite LACs /schools are not on the table?
@homerdog Apparently, the kids do get research opportunities.
The question is in no way a dig on LACs, which I love and know that kids get great ops and faculty connections there. I really am confused as to why there is such a divide between where the LANL/SNL/AFRL, etc. scientists send their kids and where the rest of us focus.
This even came up when our older S was applying, and related to business school. Our scientist friend looked only at the top large uni’s for his S, choosing the best UC he got into (then transferring to JPL and moving there for instate tuition), while our S chose Richmond. I could go on and on with these examples.
I always though a big state school is something to do for post undergrad, but these very top PhDs from the labs kids are at GT, Purdue, UIUC, Berkeley, Michigan, Wisconsin, UT Austin, UCLA, Irvine, you name it. Even the few kids we know who looked at schools like WashU, Cornell, USC (with the big merit scholarship) etc and got in chose the big state uni.
I’m just wondering what, if anything, I’m missing. I know a kid has to “fit” at a school, so for D, big state uni’s are mostly out of the question. But, S wants “school spirit” and would like big sports. He’s going to apply to some big state uni’s, but I’ve mentioned we’ve thought he may ED somewhere, and I know the scientists would never consider these schools for their kids. Just an observation.
@TVBingeWatcher2 One of our older S’s best friends just transferred to TTU. He’s not in engineering, but it’s a great OOS bargain and he said he decided to stop wasting his parent’s $ at the CA private where he didn’t make any real friends. Very sweet kid.
@havenoidea i have a theory. One, if these academics work at big universities and went to school there themselves then that is all they know. Also, many parents (rightly) feel that a state school will work for anyone and is the best financial choice if the student is proactive. Even my H (who doesn’t work IN academia but with academics) thinks state universities deliver what is expected without some of the bells and whistles of a smaller school. I think he’d love it if our kids were into the big state school idea but they are not. Part of it is that they are both undecided and I think that’s harder at a big university because you might not be able to get into some impacted program like CS if you decide that’s what you want sophomore year. At a lot of state schools you also need to apply into a major and lots of kids not ready to do that either.
Some parents push a major on their kids that they think will result in a good career. I can’t tell you how many kids I know whose parents told them it is Big Ten and business for them. That’s what the parents would pay for. There’s some attitude that college is only about the result and not the journey or those four years. Those parents would likely not get that anyone can go into business from an LAC without a business degree (except for maybe something specialized like accounting).
So there are many many parents out there who do not see the need to travel far or search for merit or pay lore for anything other than their state option.
@havenoidea Most engineers that I know are intensely pragmatic and it’s been said ad nauseam here on CC that as long as the program is ABET certified, it doesn’t make sense to pay more for private school prestige. Coursework and grades are what matters most (although schools like Michigan or GA Tech would certainly get employers’ attention). If the big state school includes merit and an honors program and research opportunities, seems like a no brainer.
I have an engineer friend who is a very active gifted ed advocate. His kid is one of those math contest kids, NMF, etc. Very impressive. The kid followed the money and went to Texas Tech for engineering. Very happy there - both socially and academically. I think it’s a hidden gem for STEM kids.
I think the same concepts can be applied to high schools. I know parents who looked at our public high school (on the larger side) and private high schools and just thought - my child will get lost in this large school. I’d rather pay more and have them be in a smaller, more nurturing environment. Even if it is not as “well ranked” or “well known”
Proponents of the larger school will say - this school has so many more opportunities: class selection, activities, sports, a more diverse population, etc. Navigating a larger school will help kids learn to advocate for themselves and be self starters.
Neither are right. It’s a choice. Frankly, I think most kids will do just fine in either environment. A large high school isn’t as impersonal and scary as some make it out to be. It’s just different.
^^^ yes to the last two posts. I also think academics at big universities tend to think a private school that costs more is a want and not a need.
I’ve spoken to quite a few profs at Bowdoin (and at kenyon when we visited) and all of them who have college kids are sending them to either LACs or the smaller Ivies like Princeton. So, I’m not surprised that profs at big universities send their kids to big universities.
UT Dallas is another hidden gem for STEM kids. My neighbors son graduated from there and got a great job, he speaks very highly of the school and the students that attend.
I agree that scientist and engineers are extremely pragmatic. I live in very STEM PhD focused area (not necessarily academia though, quite a few government labs) plus have a large social/alumni network of STEM people. If their kids are also STEM focused, MIT, Caltech, CMU and Stanford are usually schools of interest. As we all know, those schools admissions are teeny tiny even for extremely well qualified candidates. The next tier of interest are absolutely the big research public universities.
I’d also say that most of these kids are pretty confident about their interest in engineering, probably because they’ve been more exposed through their parents’ work/interests. They also may be unsure on the specific specialty, but that they ultimately want an engineering or computer science degree is not in doubt. It makes the LACs a hard sell as they don’t want 3/2, 4/2 or to have to get a masters - and their pragmatic parents certainly don’t want to pay for additional years when they’re set on a path.
So many opinions on this topic of STEM at LACs vs. Big U, but no right answer.
FWIW, my BIL and his partner are both profs at a big UC; they advocate for their nieces/nephews (they don’t have kids) to attend LACs for liberal arts, but they’re kinda agnostic on STEM majors.
I think overall Big Us have a lot more undergrad research opps than they used to – we noticed that during D18’s college hunt.
My S gets big eyes and excited when he learns about very specific labs and technology at big schools so he leans that direction. He does like the teaching approach of a smaller school like WPI, but he specifically said until he sees their facilities and labs in person he’s unsure.
Agree with @homerdog that STEM students, especially engineering, really have to be on their game and be self-motivated at Big Us. Getting attached to peer study groups is very important.
Our family friend’s son just graduated engineering from Wisconsin. He’s a really bright kid but the first couple of semesters were very tough. He had some TAs teaching classes who were pretty lousy but he had to learn the material anyway. After getting past the first two or three semesters, quality of teaching got much better. I think there’s a hit or miss nature to Big U STEM classes at the intro levels.
He ended up doing really well – got very involved in research and is now going directly to grad school at an Ivy for something he’s very excited about.
Personally, I worry about my S getting lost in a big school, but that might b/c I’m his Mom! That said, other than Michigan and UCs, state schools are wthin our budget so that makes me happy.
