@homerdog – I have all those same conversations with myself and totally concur!
@inthegarden – I know, right? It feels a bit like a nuclear arms race!
In the past what prevented this escalation is that most schools REQUIRED a student submit a score so they had to submit scores less than 75th percentile if that’s the best score they had. There was no choice. This year with pretty much all colleges TO we are in a dilemma of trying to figure out if submitting a score helps, is neutral, or hinders an application. It’s a bit of Prisoner’s Dilemma (who said that poli sci degree wouldn’t pay off? ) where two people’s outcomes are impacted by the other’s decision but no one knows what the other is doing. Multiply this by thousands of applicants!
For example, if only students with tippy top scores submit to a school – then a student who submits a more average score for that school (based on previous years’ scores) might look less competitive or favorable. Given this potential situation (again, we don’t actually KNOW what students will do – that’s the ‘dilemma’), it seems to me for top schools the safest bet is if a student doesn’t have a high score (very high?) for that school, they shouldn’t submit. This assumes the rest of the app (GPA, ECs, etc.) is very strong. My two cents at least.
All that said, my S will submit his score to all the big engineering publics where he’s applying. His score is about 50th percentile for them but my thinking is that for engineering they are seeking ‘confirmation’ of his ability to do the work - esp. math – so a score is important and in this case won’t hurt him. But for his top reach schools, he’s not going to submit b/c he’s closer to 25th percentile. However, If someone feels otherwise, I’m all ears! [Additional context: he is a 4.0 student with 10 APs in a top 10 public school in our state, top 8% class rank, good AP scores (not sure they matter?), good ECs and leadership but nothing earthshaking.]
Good morning! Can’t believe we already have acceptances on here- congratulations!!
Meanwhile we are feeling so far behind at our house. I know it will all work out somehow but it is stressing me out! D21 still doesn’t have a clear college list (she has a few places she will apply but not enough match or safety) and nothing is even sounding great to her. When D19 was applying and going through the same problem D21 assured me she would never be so picky, she didn’t care about a name just finding a place she would be happy, etc. Of course now here we are and she is in the same boat as her sister.
She was considering ED for a while but she knew DH and I had to decide if it was an option due to being full pay. Since then she has kind of backed off of the idea.
She took the SAT and did ok but not as well as she would need to do to feel comfortable submitting scores yet. She is taking it again this weekend but she hasn’t put much effort into practicing so I really don’t think she will improve. Not sure what we will do there.
She has not written one sentence for any essays, I think that is what is stressing me out the most. ?. I have the Write Your Way In book and I read about half. It seems very helpful but only if I can get her to read it. ?
This weekend I am taking D and 3 friends to see schools in VA and NC. A few are for her and a few for her friends and one probably just for me. It is going to be a super busy 2 1/2 days cramming in at least 6 schools. I wouldn’t normally do that but since we are only doing an official tour at one and just wandering on our own at the others I think it will be OK.
With the airlines cutting so many flights we will have to do a lot of driving. We have to fly from FL to Baltimore/Washington. Will drive to Richmond and see U Richmond (too small for these kids but our hotel is right there and I’ve always wanted to see it) and William & Mary. Then we drive to Chapel Hill and stay there two nights while we visit UNC, Wake, Duke (just for fun, one girl may want to try though) and Elon where we will have a real tour.
@momtogkc I know…what’s up with flights??? I get it. There’s Covid. But I looked at flying into Charlotte, which usually has multiple direct flights from here every day, and now there’s ONE. I wonder how we can find out how long the cut in flights is going to be going on. It’s a consideration for us when choosing a school for sure.
I’m excited for your trip. Can you take notes? Most of those schools aren’t giving tours so I’m curious what you’re trying to gain by visiting. We are grappling with visiting schools this fall but they aren’t close and require flying and hotels and I’m struggling with trying to decide if it’s worth it just to walk around. D can get a tour at Wake since, if you send an app or interview, they will let you get an official tour but the rest of the schools she’s interested in nearby are only allowing self tours. We were all set to just wait until spring but now that I’ve heard admitted student days could be virtual at many schools, I’m worried schools won’t let kids on campus at all in the spring and then D is choosing a school sight unseen.
@inthegarden – forgot to respond to your comment about not everyone applying to tippy top schools. Totally agree – and as I pointed out, my son is one of them. Most his list is ‘match’ oriented. The TO dilemma for him comes down to 2 reach schools on his list.
@momtogkc, enjoy your trip! that IS a lot of schools, quite a whirlwind! good luck! My D has written three essay drafts but is practically back to square one and has three supplements to do. And now buried in schoolwork and khan prep. I did my due diligence trying to warn her this summer so my conscience is clean (though that does nothing to reduce the anxiety).
@AlmostThere2018, I guess it will become a self-fulfilling prophesy if everyone thinks that way and only submits those extra-high scores. I guess I have felt that if they are at least at the 50-percentile or higher level of that school’s normal scores, then the school would be glad to know that the student shows ability to achieve at that school’s level of expectations, especially corroborated with grades and rigor.
Those of us with kids in average high schools don’t have the option of going school-optional to hide that factor from an AO’s view. It’s a double-whammy if their hard -earned (but newly deficient) test scores are to be now seen as another mark against them or thrown away, and their grades are looked at with skepticism. It’s as if we were to tell a kid with a healthy array of ECs not to submit them because they didn’t win state or national awards.
Whatever happened to schools telling students that they expect scores to be lower this year, that they will be understanding of all circumstances? I hope they stick to that.
I don’t know if going TO is only a concern for the reaches on D19’s list. Her safeties give merit and so, if she sends scores, they will be considered in that light. So, we have to decide if that makes sense as well once she gets scores. She will get a score on Oct 9th and then one on the 15th and one on the 16th. Lol! Then we need to figure out a plan.
@momtogkc, I did a whirlwind 6 schools/3 days for schools in NC/SC about a month ago and it was still so much better than nothing to walk around the campuses alone…ruled a few schools out just based on those self tours and getting the vibe of the surrounding area.
D’s 9/13 ACT test was cancelled (disclosed a few weeks in advance, thankfully) but when she went to reschedule, the only availability within a few hours drive was December. So after trying for a few months to get a reasonable re-take, I told her please be done, and she said YES I am done trying… and I’m glad.
But…she did take several reach schools off the list because of it. With her one lopsided set of scores that average 29 from February, she’s only applying to 2 schools where that # is not at the middle or better of the 25-75% range and she won’t submit her scores to those schools, obviously. She’s not a top student…she’s a weighted 4.0 with some rigor (3 AP’s total, 5 honors classes but her school doesn’t weight honors), probably 25% ranking in her class, has had a B grade every semester of HS. If D19 was in this situation (4.8 GPA all A’s, full IB diploma +many AP’s, top 1% class ranking)…and for those kids with tippy top academic profiles like that… I would not have thought twice about taking a pass on trying to get an ACT score. Parents…once you get to 34, it doesn’t really seem to matter if it’s 34, 35, or 36 if your kid has the super rigorous academic transcript…the slightly higher score is not going to make the difference in admissions. That pattern bore out with all of D19s friends, and is consistently the feedback I hear from friends, counselors, admissions officers, etc. (I know it might make a difference for some scholarships). But for D21, given her rank and rigor are lower…and she’s a late bloomer academically…without that tippy top transcript, if she did well on the standardized test (33+), I think that would have pulled up her academic profile for a reach school. But regardless, it’s really OK. D21 is going to get into a school, and we’re moving on. Her life is not ruined because of a standardized test she didn’t re-take even though she has adjusted her college application list. I’m definitely a ‘things happen for a reason’ person when it comes to college admissions, admittedly.
Yes, my D21 got an email this morning from Duke addressed to another girl’s name (totally unfamiliar to us). About an hour later, they resent the same email with “oops…” and then they used D21’s name.
D21 is not considering Duke at all, so we all got a good laugh out of it. How did the mail sorting program mess that up though, I wonder?
ETA: my DH suggested she reply thanking them for the email and saying she is so excited to apply to UNCCH, oops…Duke.
My S21 is submitting his score to all schools even if not at above 50-75%. His school had the Match SAT and they are hosting an SAT in October, I think all the top kids at his school will be submitting scores.
THis is something I haven’t thought of. I wonder if our GC would be willing to give us a general idea of what percentage of kids at our school are using test scores. Even better, I’d like to know how many are using them for the schools on D’s list but I doubt she would be able to get that information or be willing to tell us!
@homerdog Sorry it was free to read when I posted the link but now looks like you need a subscription. I didn’t summarize because I didn’t really get a sense of the whole picture. ACT has not been as forthcoming on #s as SAT but they claimed only a fraction of the July takers couldn’t test. Then you don’t know how many people successfully tested in 2019.
From the article: 9/26 and 10/3 SAT at least 183k/363k canceled, at least 154k/363k canceled. 8/29 SAT 53% test centers closed or reduced capacity; 150k/402k able to test. Estimate from Compass Education Group is 1/3 fewer get to take both SAT & ACT than 2020.
My take is that fewer kids will be able to take it multiple times and superscore, fewer kids will have scores worth submitting, there will be regional differences, and those “drivers” applying to top schools are more likely to have test scores. I would speculate that more ED kids will have test scores.
From our perspective, I would have guessed maybe lower than 50% could test, but it seems like that might be higher. I did talk to a mom of a CA boarding school student who decided he would blow off the test even if he could get one. If S was in public school, he would have zero chance within hundreds of miles to take the ACT, 50% chance to take only the March SAT in town. Another thought is that most of our target schools are in restrictive areas as well (CA, WA, MA) except Colorado so that might help a bit.
@AlmostThere2018 If S didn’t have a lower math lopsided score, we would be submitting to schools if at the 50% since he is at a small, Catholic school. This year it was harder to get a score at the midpoint. AOs should absolutely consider that and ACT should step up and give #s on cancelations. There is some question about whether AOs appreciate the extent of the testing problems or if they are in their “academic bubble”. Also might not know if they are located in a state that was very open to testing. Ideally, more information would be available during the early rounds.
Agree that is part of the problem. Also some of the “open states” like mine still had plenty of cancelations. D prepped for 2 tests that didn’t happen, the first one she was better prepped than at any other point. She ended up getting a few tests in, but not under ideal conditions. One where she had to get up a bit after 4:00 am to drive there, and another where she spent the night in an unfamiliar bed the night before the test because it was 3 hours from our house.
Different issues that I will spare you the details on, but S19 is having a host of problems right now and is pretty discouraged about everything. Lots of things going wrong in his life at the moment, pretty much all of it Covid caused. I told him it’s a jacked up year, and everyone is having problems, albeit some more than others. You have to focus on the things you can control, and keep putting one foot in front of the other. The things you can’t control you can’t control, so don’t waste your energy worrying about them.
It’s really too bad I can’t take my own advice. . .
@dadof4kids hope things get better for your S19! It’s hard on these kids (and parents) and I totally agree that it’s good to try to focus on what you can control. There are still decisions to be made though and it’s a bit hard with the information not all out there. You just have to decide on what you have at the time.
As to a score under 50% or in our case a lopsided for his major score, I’m just going to ask S to omit that since it would drag down his app with better grades and also because I don’t want the school to be concerned that their later published stats go down for this admitted class.
Right! This isn’t just about if kids had the chance to take a test. What about how they’ve prepped and been cancelled on so many times? What about having to drive far or having to wear a mask for four hours plus while taking it? What about the stress or not knowing if this is the only test they will take?
We’ve been over this a thousand times but, at least for the AOs I have seen talk live about test scores, I believe them that it won’t be held against the kids if they go TO. And you know what? If that’s what keeps a student out then maybe it’s not the school for them. If D decides not to send scores and that’s the one thing that’s keeps her out? Then oh well. I think she’s already in that mindset and I’m 99 percent there. I just couldn’t have her pass up the chance to take these tests since she studied so much this spring and there were seats available. It does not mean, though, that we will definitely send scores.
Same thing for us this morning. Email addressed to a girl’s name, then an hour later they resent with the “Oops…” email in S21’s name. I like your DH’s suggestion for a reply email!
we kept a wall of shame in the hallway of our senior year dorm. It included not only the job and grad school rejection letters, but we also took the time to redline all the grammatical errors and various other mistakes like wrong name, etc.
I’m located in the SF Bay Area and most of the SF Bay Area and beyond (Mendocino, Monterey, etc.) have been SIP (shelter-in-place). And most tests sites, if not all, have canceled their tests.
My D’s March, May, June, August, September and October SAT tests have been canceled. We reserved SAT test sites that were both public and Catholic schools and also inside and outside the SF Bay Area. All canceled.
Someone out there may have gotten a test result, but there can’t be very many here.
@NateandAllisMom – My gut says you’re right that at or even close to 50th percentile may be the right number this year to submit a score. And I bet AOs are familiar with how limited testing in CA, in particular, has been.
@inthegarden – I hear you about more ‘average’ schools where a test score helps confirm a student’s ability since a college may not be as familiar with the HS. Context matters, and my sense is you’re right to lean on the side of submitting a score.
All of these unknowns are difficult, but I tend to agree with @homerdog that we have to just figure it’ll all work out. We’re helping our kids navigate a very strange year and in the end it’ll be okay. Lots of great schools out there. Serenity now!
@dadof4kids – sorry things are rough for your son right now.
) where two people’s outcomes are impacted by the other’s decision but no one knows what the other is doing. Multiply this by thousands of applicants!