Our kids were the same. We didn’t push the “dream school” concept at all. To me, it just seems to cause unnecessary disappointment. And I know kids who had a dream school and after a semester or year there, realized it wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. And I’ve read plenty of those NYU debut stories. Is four years at your “dream school” really worth all the debt? What if you don’t get a high paying job? What if something happens and you can’t work?
I know a girl who didn’t get into her dream school. She went to the university where she was a legacy an hour and half away from home. She was determined to transfer out after her first year and kept moaning about how she didn’t want to be there, etc. (her parents told her she had to stick it out for one year). Well, she ended up making lots of friends, had some wonderful classes, so she decided she’d give it one more year. Well, in her junior year she met a guy, who is now her husband. She graduated with honors. Turns out this school wasn’t so bad. And it’s a school that would be a lot of people’s dream school. She has had nothing but great things to say about this school. Her so-called “dream school” that rejected her is just a distant memory that no longer matters.
It depends on the kid, but I’d say do what you can afford.
In one post you say you would not support your kid’s choice of school if he/she could do the same job with a trade school diploma and here you say that if he/she went to a school that cost $320K and became a teacher (in NC average starting pay is about $35K), you would be fine with that.
The other stuff you wrote is plain rhetoric.
But hey, one cannot put a price on emotion! Good for you and your family.
The math has been done on other threads. No degree is worth $80K/year on based on average ROI unless it is quantitative analysis from MIT or some such.
Like you said, as long as parents “perceive” prestige, they will assume it will all be worth it someday. The reality is for the vast majority of these kids, that will not be the case.
But as many have said on here, they value their child’s emotional welfare over money. So, they are ok spending that kind of money. After all, who can argue with that?
So if “no degree is worth $80k/year” are you suggesting kids forego college? Or only colleges that cost $80k/year, aka private colleges? A college degree seems necessary in many instances so is your stance that any degree will do so the least expensive is best? Just trying to understand your argument.
FWIW, I never said anything about “prestige”. If you read through the bulk of my comments I shy away from “dream” school and with my own kids we focused on fit. And for my kids, at least so far, the choice has been worth it. Again, my estimation of worth but I think even an objective observer would concur.
Finally, I’m not sure people are using that concept - valuing “emotional welfare” over money. My decisions were not based on “emotional welfare” but I value the personal growth - perhaps that is a synonym in your vocabulary? - and the intangibles that my kids got (are getting) from their college experiences. Not sure if it’s intentional, but your disparaging of those who value their children’s “emotional welfare” - not something I have ever espoused - comes off as snarky.
What I am saying is that when a kid wants to spend $80K to go to a dream school, make sure you know exactly what that is for before you cut the check.
You wrote “Many on these threads are willing to “pay up” because they believe there is a higher ROI at these “dream” schools.” Then you go on to talk about potential income. So, if the thought here is that going to a “dream” school will better prepare your kid to get a better job because that situation is better than what it would be if he/she went to another school then it is a logic one cannot argue against…just like you said, intangible.
What I argued for is that your average kid’s “dream” school might be an abstract idea that requires some serious vetting by parents.
I took time to explain these things to my kids and let them choose. If you go through my posts, I have a son whose “dream” school is one that has a nice dorm with plush living quarters and a private bath. Do you think it would be wise for me to spend $80K per year hoping better sleep at night might propel him to become the next Bill Gates? I do not think so. He has a C is Calc AB and a 1320 on SAT. Reality bites.
I typically don’t spend money on depreciating assets. But once in my life, I gave in and bought a Mercedes C240. It was the biggest piece of junk I had ever owned. Lesson learned.
100% agree. The reasoning behind school selection needs to be “sound” and definitely requires vetting by parents. Sounds like we are on the same page; I was very involved as my kids identified their school lists and would have pushed back had their choices not aligned with my values, as I was paying the tab.
Our decisions were not based on ROI. While I do believe that some schools provide better financial outcomes, my process was never based on financial calculations. I provided them in this thread as a devil’s advocate to the proposition that choosing the least expensive school or skipping school altogether yields savings (that big pool of money - opportunity cost? whatever you want to call it) that people should be jumping on. I just thought the logic was flawed. @sscholl’s example was more compelling and made the point way better. Kudos to him (her?)!
I am not @Blossom, but I want to address this as well. Universities are places for students who enjoy school and the life of the academic mind; it is not based on the income that one will earn upon graduation. There are many individuals who work in the trades who earn significantly more than college graduates who work in a field that requires a college degree, such as teaching. Many such people have little interest in academics, and thus a trade school that will put them on the desired career trajectory is best for them. The value of a college degree is not the monetary ROI, but the cultivation of the academic mind and the growth that takes place by being surrounded by novel experiences and ideas.
But the scorn for an MIT graduate who chooses to teach is uncalled for. Do you want your child to have the best possible teachers who have a deep knowledge of their subject and can break it down into comprehensible chunks? Do you want your child to have teachers who can make connections between historical events and current events? Explain how the use of the scientific method can be used outside of the hard sciences? Connect allusions to “classics” (whether biblical, Shakespeare, ancient Greeks, Dickensian, etc) no matter where they may be found? Has experiences with students from all sorts of backgrounds (geographic, political, racial, nationality, etc.) and can relate to them and help students form connections to one another? Our country’s educators have been trampled on for many years now. Most states don’t pay teachers in a way that is commensurate with the education they have earned, yet continue to add more responsibilities on teachers without providing additional resources, and then blame teachers for many of the ills of our society. But to say that someone who wants to become an educator shouldn’t be afforded the opportunity to go to whichever institutions of higher education s/he desires because their career will be far from lucrative is insulting.
Actually your nomenclature was wrong. You referenced a 7% interest rate and supported the comment by providing total return experience. Apples and oranges.
This is the closest comparison you provided as it is 100% Fixed Income but does not represent a “risk free” investment portfolio of US Govt. securities.
Thank you for your post and I generally find your posts very informative.
If you read through what I said, my point was make sure you question your 17 year old’s choices before you write a check.
Of course we want the best teachers for our kids. But in the same token, that teacher could very well go to a state school and do just as good a job! In fact, would it make sense to save that extra money considering how poorly most teachers are compensated?
With our kids, we were clear from the start about what we could and could not afford. We toured and our kids applied to schools with this in mind. We expected our kids to bloom where they were planted and make the most of their time in college. We expected them to do everything they could in college to maximize the chances of getting jobs when they graduated. D has a good job and she told me that the person who interviewed her was impressed with the volunteer work she did as a member of a service club. To me, college is about WHAT you do, not WHERE you go.
What I knew was that he or she was making statements about future looking investment results based upon prior results while misusing terms of reference. I assumed he/she meant the words they wrote.
If you read the entirety of my comment it made the point that such assumptions are perilous.
I used today’s current “transitory” inflation as an example.
To me this is not a choice. Dorms, great parties, private bath- not part of my spending equation. And my point about trade school and becoming a plumber- a kid who really, really wants to learn a trade should do that- which in my neck of the woods means a CC program and an apprenticeship. You cannot teach HS math in my state with a certificate from a community college (no matter how brilliant you are), so a degree from a college- with a major in math, and then pedagogical classes via an ed program are the way to go. Or- a private school where experienced math teachers make low 6 figures. (they have to coach the math team in addition to teaching, but that’s likely not a hardship).
But my point- I wouldn’t pay full freight for nicer dorms, better weather, proximity to skiing. Your “menu” might be different. But a kid who was prepared to throw him/herself into everything university has to offer-- since I had already saved the money, AND had a relatively secure job and many more years to work- that seemed like the right decision.
You jumped quickly to interest rates. Not looking at market returns (which was clearly what was intended). And assumptions about forward looking statements based on past results isn’t limited to investments. Also true of salaries, job opportunities, etc. Without these assumptions, planning for our future lives (even just tomorrow) falls apart.
For some of us, the point of having money is to spend it upon things we value, in our case, children’s education. This give both my kids and my husband and I great satisfaction; moreso that gifting them $3 million or whatever the number is when they are 60.
I inherited some money when my parents died. I wish they had used it instead when they were alive to improve the quality of life for us when I was young.
