Pay now and borrow later?

Parents Forum
41

<p>"sounds as if your major concern is that your D will have an easier time getting accepted to med school coming out of one of her dream schools."</p>

<p>I think the mcat has alot to say in the process moreso than undergrad. You do poorly on the mcat, chances are pretty good you won't see a medical school door, no matter what college you attended. </p>

<p>Med school is pretty much an individual adventure.... It's what you bring to the table rather than what school you attended for undergrad... </p>

<p>The debate then would be does a certain school prepare the student better than another? The tough part about that is the student is such a variable as it is really what they bring to the party.</p>

42

<p>Gee.... hard question. I work in corporate HR and the single most common complaint I hear from young job candidates (i.e. 22-30) is "I hated pre-med" or "I hated med school" or from one talented guy recently, "I graduated med school but couldn't bear the thought of doing it one more day so I left after graduation". These are all smart, focused, ambitious people (like your D) who at one point really thought they were going to be physicians but life intervened.</p>

<p>I also interview thousands of "I hated being a lawyer so now I want to work in Public Relations" candidates but that's a different story!</p>

<p>Anyway, I would not make the next decision on the basis of what or might or could come down the line. I would work with my kid to optimize the current decision and find the place where she'd thrive and grow and work hard and expand her boundaries over the next four years. If that means a free ride-- great, it keeps lots of other options open down the line. If that means paying tuition (and it's not clear to me she won't see some $ from the other schools) then she gets on line at the bank for a loan for med school like all her classmates. If she opts out of medicine to do a PhD in Biostatistics or Neurology she'll have grad school paid for.</p>

<p>And if she decides to become a financial analyst or actuary or HS chemistry teacher or museum curator or science journalist or whatever.... you'll cross that bridge when you come to it.</p>

43

<p>blossom: thanks for bringing this up. I just went throgh the 'C' thing, so I saw tons of different doctors. They were all depressed. I found myself trying to cheer them up. I also thought, god what a boring job. I mean, oncology looked pretty rote to me and just imagine the boredom of being a urologist. I guess I'm biased. I'm the son of a GP and all I heard growing up was how much he hated it. He got out at age 57 and life has been in bliss ever since.
As for lawyers --- I teach MBA's - lots of lawyers looking for a way out.
Nevertheless, I disagree that one should deplete the college savings on the undergrad degree. Save it for grad. school. There are lots of grad programs that can get you to where you want to go once you have figured out what it is that you really want to do.
Short story: the guy who did my surgery graduated from the LAC that I work at. Right before I went under, I asked him what he got from Prof. Y---- (organic chem). He said, "two 'As', and I've been misearble ever since." That Mercedes 500 and $1m house is hard to enjoy when you are miserable with your occupational choice.</p>

44

<p>My husband is going to love you guys!, (even though he does visit CC),..now I see the many advantages of going to a good school that offer generous scholarships (versus the “mirage” dream school). Our daughter is an easy going kid, who adapts easily…I think she will be happy wherever she ends up.</p>

<p>Yes, we could pay for college, but dropping 200k is NOT easy for us, that would deplete our savings, influence (negatively) our life style, retirement, and money available for younger son’s education.<br>
Second, I am aware of the fact that the future is uncertain and she might change her mind about her career. We have always told her, “you are going to spend 50 or more hours a week in your job….you better make sure you like it or else you will be very miserable!</p>

<p>At the end the future really depends on the kid, she will make it happen in any school if she really has the WILL and DETERMINATION ….and that is something that no college can give you….you either have it or you don’t.</p>

<p>We do not know yet if she will get merit money from other schools, she has not even been offered admission yet…. We are working on the assumption that she has a good chance of being admitted but no chance of merit money. The statistics of the kids who get merit aid at those universities are really out of this world (our daughter has a 33 ACTand a 2200 SAT, many merit-aid recipients have 35 and 2300 and above!)</p>

45

<p>But (if you can afford the choices) I think undergrad 4-years is not just about "getting where you want to go!" - It is about becoming who you want to be, and getting the best education you can surrounded by the most interesting professors and students you can find.

[quote]
There are lots of grad programs that can get you to where you want to go once you have figured out what it is that you really want to do.

[/quote]
A great undergraduate education let's you taste the waters in many fields and discover what it is that you want to do. (And if it is fully funded in grad school - which is a good possibility if you have had a great undergrad education - then more the better!)</p>

46

<p>"It is about becoming who you want to be, and getting the best education you can surrounded by the most interesting professors and students you can find. "</p>

<p>having sat through Stanford's "blowhard" tour a few years back, for a fact, you cannot guarantee the most interesting professors are all at the name schools.. Great professors can be found everywhere from big state schools to tiny LAC.. you see, they are people too who have different motivations and desires in their lives. Some may teach at a tiny LAC college because it's the best place to raise their kids, or they like to fly fish or grow their own grapes for wine... lots of reasons.</p>

<p>And after sitting through three "I I me me" professors at Stanfords dog and pony show, there are other "reasons" some professors teach at name schools that have nothing to do with your children.. If Stanford had brought four professors like the last one on the d and p, my kid woulda went there. As it was, by the time the most dynamic professor was up, the other three had built such a wall he couldn't knock it all down... </p>

<p>Because of course I want to drop 50k for my s to switch majors from sciences to researcher for a professors book on 14th century poets... yea that's money well spent. </p>

<p>One should visit where ever they are seriously considering and visit with the professors. Get a feel for the place.. but never assume the quality of the falculty is good or bad until you see for yourself. Great professors can be found everywhere.. so can bad ones... </p>

<p>For clarity I would define a great professor as one who inspires my kid to work hard, learn and grow... not somebody who just wants cheap laborers for their book they want to publish... Scholarship or not, what are you paying for?</p>

47

<p>Tuitionsaver; there's a lot of money for school out there. My son has been offered merit money from 2 schools with a 30 act and 2000 sat. There's also a lot of private scholarship money out there. It's not all about money from the school itself.</p>

<p>If you can get merit or scholarship money for your daughter to go to the ivy, west coast ivy, or a number of other excellent private schools, then that's great. I'm definitely not one who believes in paying $200,000 for an undergraduate education. In my opinion is isn't justified. Of course, if you are a John Kerry; Hanna Montana; or other millionaire where money isn't an issue, then that's another story. While I love my kids dearly, I'm not going to spend $200,000 on their undergraduate degree. Especially when there are plenty of schools offering my kids; and obviously yours too; the ability to go to school for little or nothing. That is a silly waste of money in my opinion. But then, my opinion is just mine. Your daughter will do just as well as one of the full rides as she would at a $200,000 school. So why spend it. Good luck to you.</p>

48

<p>"I think undergrad 4-years is not just about "getting where you want to go!" - It is about becoming who you want to be, and getting the best education you can surrounded by the most interesting professors and students you can find."</p>

<p>Let's try a little thought experiment here. Suppose you said to the applicant, "you can go to your dream school and I will pay your expenses, or you can go to a school you like pretty well for free, and I will give you $100,000." Don't you think that most kids would take the $100,000? Wouldn't you BOTH be better off?</p>

49

<p>I am borrowing about 20K total, over 4 years, for twin sons in college right now. </p>

<p>Given an uncertain economy and retirement looming there is no way I would go into serious debt for an undergraduate degree. </p>

<p>They both said they would rather I buy them a car when they graduate to follow their new careers LOL</p>

50

<p>OpieofMaybery2: Your post bears repeating on CC on a daily basis. What many forget is that a number of ivies and other high brand ID schools were open admission before WWII; well, if you had the pedegree and money you could get in. Even in the 60s, Kerry and Bush got into the Ivies; the former did not break 1200 on the SAT and 'W' just cleared it. It was the pedegree and money.
If you are going to drop 45k per year in a school and want great teachers (big name book writer does not translate to 'great teacher'), look at LACs/universities with small classes. Make sure that teaching is weighted more heavily than research in the evaluation of faculty - lots (not all) of academic research serves no purpose other than to expand the resume of the prof. (bigger pay raise or enables prof to go free agent) and enhance the reputation of the university relative to other research universities . Are the students challenged? Some big name schools have rampant grade inflation. There are a lot of great schools in the USWN top 100 LAC list. Likewise, there are a lot of wonderful, small, inexpensive state schools. True, if tou do not go to an ivy school, you will have to spend many days listening to ivy-ers talking about their school. Swallow it, and bust their chops at whatever game they are playing.</p>

51

<p>A pre-med who gets into an Ivy or like will likely get more and better research/internship opportunities at a good state school. That is simply because she is likely to be at or close to the top of her class, with more opportunities to be taken under the wing of senior researchers, have opportunities in labs, be groomed for internships, etc. In contrast, chances are at the prestige schools she'll be in the middle of her class.</p>

<p>Add onto that $190k in other educational opportunities (if you are willing to spend it), and, for most students, it isn't even close. The full-ride plus other opportunities would provide for a far, far superior education.</p>

<p>This presumes of course that you would be willing to spend a big chunk of change over the full-ride, and that the student is prepared to avail herself of the opportunities.</p>

52

<p>There certainly are many perspectives here. It also seems like there are college options for each perspective. As long as no one has to go hungry, no harm/no foul.</p>

<p>My community college students are very grateful for their opportunity. And they think they are smart, spending so little for classes capped at 25 in every discipline. I think, by and large, we are excellent teachers. We'd absolutely lose our audience if we weren't.</p>

<p>I do think the price tag is worth it; I'd been planning since there were born to send them to a top institution if they could be admitted. Financial reversals made us eligible for need-based aid, but I used the college savings to rescue my husband's business. We wouldn't have had that money had I not been saving for college. Just one of life's ironies.</p>

<p>And I can't explain why I think it's worth it. Probably for a very irrational reason: that I always regretted not being able to choose my college or grad school for financial reasons (accepted for grad at Columbia; couldn't attend.)</p>

<p>That said, with two in school, this year I am paying less than the COA of our state universities.</p>

53

<p>As parents, we decided early on that we would pay for our kids' undergrad education. After that, everything else is up to them. (They will be 22 years old after that, for goodness sakes). It makes the decision easy to pay for the best undergrad they get into.</p>

54

<p>
[quote]
A pre-med who gets into an Ivy or like will likely get more and better research/internship opportunities at a good state school. That is simply because she is likely to be at or close to the top of her class, with more opportunities to be taken under the wing of senior researchers, have opportunities in labs, be groomed for internships, etc. In contrast, chances are at the prestige schools she'll be in the middle of her class.

[/quote]
But that's not the case. At good private schools, the faculty/student ratio is such that there are so many more opportunities out there. My kids' school has a faculty student ratio of about 1:6 and a heavy undergraduate focus. Most of those profs are doing some kind of research, and have the time and energy to guide students who want to participate or do their own research. Profs have time to mentor, and funds to pay for research help, and univ has lots of grants for students to do paid travel, research, etc. Contrast that with our big state U's, with a faculty student ratio of 1:20 (and many profs totally tied up with grad students) where every prof is stretched to the max, and all the undergrads are trying for those same opportunities.</p>

55

<p>From the same high school class I know girls who bought their prom dresses at a thrift shop for $25.00. I also know another who had a gown hand designed for $1000.00 + and everything in-between. Our community if fairly homogeneous economically, a fairly wealthy upper-middle class community with little economic diversity but lots of ethnic diversity because we are situation near three hospitals and an international physics research lab. All seemed happy with her choice.</p>

<p>(My D was neither of these.)</p>

<p>People put their money where it's most important to them and others often can't understand their choices, whether they choose to drive a hummer or a hyundai.</p>

56

<p>
[quote]

And I can't explain why I think it's worth it. Probably for a very irrational reason: that I always regretted not being able to choose my college or grad school for financial reasons (accepted for grad at Columbia; couldn't attend.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]

People put their money where it's most important to them and others often can't understand their choices, whether they choose to drive a hummer or a hyundai.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Very well said. People has different spending priority. </p>

<p>Education has always been our first choice. We have never bought the kid any toys, clothes, etc. exceed $100 in all his 18 years. But we had planned to sell house to fund the kid's college expanse if needed. We made promise to him "Don't worry about the tuition, try your best to get the best school you can.". Now we are in the better situation than we thought, although we still have mortgate on house and have to postpone retirement, but we can afford without selling the house. However by no means a little help (generouse FA like HP extended to uper-middle class) is not wellcomed. But he has a friend whose parents earned more than us (kids at this age, looking for college talk to each other), having vacation house/flat at European, over sea vacation every year, told my kid his parents told him they could not afford his private college tuition. So his option might end up at state U (although his stats shown he could get addmission to a good private institution). I'm not saying our choice is better than theirs, or a good private institution is necessary better than the state U. People could have different opinions and priority. For us, we just don't want our kids have to make choice based on finantial factor (in the hope that he can get himself into one of the top colleges in the nation.)</p>

<p>IMO, if you could, don't make kid chose. Some kids may take it well, some may not. Heard a story, a kid got accepted in a ivy, also got a 'free ride' at a state flagship. The family, an uper-middle class, not qualified for 'need-based' FA at the ivy, the parents made kid chose "ivy" or "free ride to state U, we the money saved from ivy buy a new car for you. XXXX's kid go to the state U and they bought him new car...." The kid (usually kept things to self) took the late, cause he knew that's what his parents wanted him to do. But he was not happy, seeing his peers who got accepted into the ivy actually went to ivy. After an unhappy year, he took his own life. And this was the only child in family. The parents took it sooooooooooooooo hard. Of course this is an extrem example and this kid might have some other reason, but parents' mind would always be question "what if we let him go ivy?". I think the 'guilty' feeling will follow them the rest of their life.</p>

57

<p>Well, the story you heard, if true, is laden with other issues. ANY person who would commit suicide because they didn't get into an ivy school has deeper issues. Such to the point that if it wasn't not attending the ivy school, it probably would have been something else. The whole attitude of if a person doesn't get what they wany leads towards suicide and other issues is pure B.S. Welcome to real world. Life isn't always fair, nor should it be. Maybe the parents are at fault for their kid's suicide for not teaching them that you don't always get what you want in life. Maybe they spoiled him too much. Either way, IF the story is true, then the kid other other major problems.</p>

<p>As far as the "Better" schools go, who's to say that because the school costs more, that it's better. Is a $60,000 lexus a "BETTER" car than a $25,000 Toyota Camry or Avalon? They are both built by the same company. They both get you where you are going. Chances are, you are mainly paying extra for luxury and name recognition. I know of highly recognized accredited online schools (that also have physical campus') that cost over $25,000 a year. Are they better than the state-U because they cost more. Contrary to some beliefs, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Standford, Cornell, Purdue, etc... AREN'T better because they cost more. If they are better, it's usually in a specific area that they are well know for educationally and in the job market. I,e. in graduate school, Harvard Law would be considered the "Better" school compared to others. MIT would be considered the better technical school. YET, if you are into major research/engineering and similar things, Michigan State is considered one of the best. Do you want to be a veterinarian? You almost CAN'T BEAT Colorado State University in Fort Collins Colorado. Any vet in the country will tell you about CSU.</p>

<p>The point is, paying $200,000 for your kid to go to a school because of it's name, or because it's the kid's "DREAM SCHOOL" because of publicity and social status, is plain stupid. If your kid wanted to be a vet and you sent them to an ivy school instead of CSU because of the name, that is totally stupid. Now, if your kid wants to be a financial broker for a large firm on wallstreet, Harvard would be a valid choice. If they want to aspire to get into law, political science, politics, international affairs, etc... on a national or international level, then Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc... would be a wonderful choice. In these situations, I believe in trying my best to get my kid there. Whatever I can afford financially, etc... But, if the kid doesn't know totally what they want to be when they grow up; if they want a "Basic" degree in business, arc, eng, science, etc... and plans on excelling in graduate school, then an undergraduate degree from state-U or other non-excessively priced school would be the better choice. It saves money and other resources when they graduate and gives them more options after without the burden of loans or their parents having put themselves out.</p>

<p>The cost of tuition does NOT constitute a "Better" school. The better school is the one that will get you where you are going. A kid's "DREAM" school is just a dream. Most times, they have no idea what they are asking for. They have bought into the marketing hype of the name and prestige of going to a big name school. I didn't buy my kid the Playstation 3 because ALL HIS FRIENDS had one. I sure won't send him to an ivy league school because ALL HIS FRIENDS go to such schools.</p>

58

<p>Medical Schools:
Duke University
Georgetown University
Penn State University
Thomas Jefferson University
University of Pennsylvania
University of Pittsburgh</p>

<p>This is a list of Medical Schools that 2006 graduates of Penn State Schreyers Honors students attended after undergrad at PSU. If you want to include other years you will find Harvard Law/Med there too along with many other notable schools.</p>

<p>There are enough brilliant kids at state schools for any student to find his peers.</p>

59

<p>Christcorp, Are you a little bit too quick to judge others? Play shrink up a little? Yeah, 'stupid' us worked butt off, to save enough to pay huge $$$$ to grant our kids' college wishes.</p>

60

<p>Mini, it is not true (although I know you love to repeat it) that a kid who could have gone to a higher ranked school will </p>

<p>A- get better research opportunities at a State school
B- be at the top of her class at a State school vs. middle of the pack at the private institution.</p>

<p>You will not find a higher percentage of undergrads (including freshman) conducting research than at MIT. My son would tell us about professors who would stand up after lecture and announce, "I've just been awarded a grant for ABC discipline/problem/technology/substance". Please see me after class if you'd like to join my lab." He was working side by side with full professors and PhD candidates by Sophomore year. They treated him like a colleague; taught him tons; gave him full access to the resources of the institute.</p>

<p>He was not an anomoly; he is the norm. MIT allows you to choose credit or cash (hourly wage) for your UROP so that kids who need the money don't get marginalized in the research process. At many public institutions the research opportunities are for credit only... what does that do for the kid whose work/study obligations eat up most of their available free time??? A kid we know at MIT was conducting research in a lab at one of the big teaching hospitals in Boston; the professor got an extra cash allotment from the department budget to make sure she could take a taxi back to the dorm late at night and not be tempted to take the subway.</p>

<p>At many private institutions research is the heart and soul of the University's mission and the administration and faculty go to great lengths to make exciting opportunities available to all interested undergrads.</p>

<p>To your second point... we know kids who are and have been pre-med at Virginia, Maryland, SUNY Binghamton, Rutgers-- nobody should assume that the competition at these places is weak... I would never tell a kid interested in med school that you'll waltz through Maryland or UIUC or Michigan or any other populous public U with a 3.9 or a 4.0. Betting on a better GPA and less formidable competition at a state school is a suckers bet imho.</p>

<p>This family will make a good rational decision for them and their circumstances, but don't pass off fiction about easier courses and more research opportunities at public U's- especially since they're now comparing apples to .... absolutely nothing since the offers aren't in yet.</p>