<p>I guess that where we disagree. If I made a commitment to accept a job, even if it was a hand shake, I would fulfill it. It is also something I have taught my kids. Sometimes it is not all about you, there is honor and there is what's the right thing to do. I do not believe my kid's rights come before other kid's.</p>
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Does anyone see an ethical distinction between double depositing and failing to honor an ED agreement, assuming that the reasons for doing so are the roughly analogous? It seems to me virtually the same thing.
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<p>Schools rescind offers for ED violations just like they rescind offers given to double-depositors. You don't need to look far to find examples of students (or their parents) thinking they were going to try and pull a fast one only to end up with BOTH schools turning around and saying "eh, on second thought we'd rather not have something like you around campus."</p>
<p>The admissions counselor at a college in PA actually told us that it was okay to send in a deposit and if our daughter changes her mind before May 1st, the college will return the deposit. If it is after May 1st, the college will keep the money.</p>
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I personally wouldn't hold up a spot for another student because my precious kid couldn't make up his/her mind.
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But this isn't the only possible scenario we're talking about. Obviously, everyone should aim to finalize everything by May 1st. But I can tell you from experience that financial aid adjustments sometimes do not come until well into April or later, leaving families little time to visit and make decisions. We also could not afford to visit all the schools and needed to make sure acceptances were in hand first. So questions of travel and financial aid involving several schools can make a May 1st deadline very difficult.</p>
<p>Colleges are simply businesses -- nothing more, nothing less. You interact with them in as honest a way as possible, but your own interests and theirs do not always align. I do not buy into the "moral" line that schools are pedaling here. I am also not advocating double enrolling -- high school counselors do not permit this and they will not send in more than one final transcript anyway. Before that point, though, there is some time and not everything can be resolved by May 1st.</p>
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We offered a spot to a student off the waitlist a few years ago only to find he’d made deposits at two other Ivy League schools before May 1 as placeholders. Before May 1, double deposits are unethical and illegal. It’s also stupid. We ended up rescinding our offer, and I heard the other schools did as well.” — former Ivy League admissions officer
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This was just a link I read in an article about waitlisting. Too tired to find the source...</p>
<p>Colleges (at least the ones where I want my kid to attend) emphasize and require honesty and integrity. The person who used the analogy of making a deposit for a car simply does not understand the concept of academic integrity. The car deposit amount has been set by the dealership to compensate it for the cost of holding a car for a buyer. The deposit amount for colleges is immaterial. It is not the hundred bucks, but the acceptance that you sign that is important to the college. </p>
<p>When you take an exam or turn in a paper, you are also not asked to sign an affidavit that it was all your own work. It does not have to be a blood oath every single time you make a promise. If you accept an offer of admission you are telling the college that you have not accepted any other offers. If you send in two acceptances, you are being dishonest, period. You are cheating both colleges, and should they find out, they should both rescind those offers.</p>
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<p>Ok, clarification: Double Deposits at more that on School on or after May 1.</p>
<p>Waitlist Exception: Ok to send in deposit to school that clears you off waitlist, as long as you withdraw from the other school.</p>
<p>Yes, a lot of schools want you to send in a deposit right away, but give you until May 1 to withdraw. I think of that as a "pre-deposit", and not a "deposit". I don't know what it gets them, other than: If the kid pre-deposits, they might be able to guess at their yields better, or it gives them additional revenue from kids who forget to withdraw before May 1.</p>
<p>The analogy of breaking a lease or car purchase agreement breaks down on a couple of fronts. When you break a conventional contract or lease, all the parties know about it. When you double enroll, you hope to hide the fact that you didn't adhere to the terms of an agreement from one of the parties, the school in which the student ultimately enrolls. </p>
<p>On the other hand, when you break a lease or purchase agreement, everyone knows more or less what the consequences are likely to be. Most colleges seem guilty of not communicating their policies clearly, including both the real consequences of double depositing and (even though this would be inconvenient for them) whether or not they grant extensions beyond May 1 in extenuating circumstances, like the legitimate ones described by several posters. </p>
<p>I can't agree that double depositing is no problem (and also think it's way riskier than simply asking for an extension in most cases), but can at least sympathize somewhat with the frustration of those who feel that colleges don't exactly own the moral high ground, particularly when there are practices like unstated policies, requests for early deposits, and housing preferences to early enrollers.</p>
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does not understand the concept of academic integrity.
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pretty hefty words there, vicariousparent. This has nothing to do with academic integrity or cheating on a test. Please stop making it about that.
Please go back to the scenarios in my previous post and tell me what you would advise your child to do. This isn't one size fits all.</p>
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When you double enroll, you hope to hide the fact that you didn't adhere to the terms of an agreement from one of the parties, the school in which the student ultimately enrolls.
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<p>Not always at all. First, as I recall, the deposit cards my kids mailed back said something like - send in your $400 deposit to reserve your spot in the class of 20xx.
I don't ever recall seeing a contract or agreement guaranteeing that my child would show up. </p>
<p>That said - allow me to be clear: I am not condoning nor do I see a purpose in a student paying deposits to several schools and then not withdrawing once the decision is made. If you have no intention of going, even if it past May 1 then just call/fax the school and let them know.</p>
<p>Agreed, there was absolutely nothing in my Ds letter this was a binding contract. SHe will absolutely be going there.</p>
<p>The colleges have engineered a system with ED, RD and WL. They know that some kids who have put down deposits will not show. The WL system benefits them as it allows for greater yield %s and less finaid. Last year, the kids accepted off of WL expanded. So the kids/parents know that the schools dont expect everyone who gives a deposit.</p>
<p>^^ Okay maybe a bit too hefty and I apologize for being a bit 'vicious'. The waitlist, room assignment issues have already been discussed. But a kid changing his/her mind is not a good reason to send in two deposits and keep them on file BEYOND the May 1st deadline.</p>
<p>Sending in a deposit is not an academic activity but if your (non-academic) dealings with a college are duplicitous the college may decide that it cannot trust what you put in the rest of your application either.</p>
<p>S was waitlisted at Amherst :( and it clearly says to make a deposit at another school (or pretty much risk not going anywhere) since over 10 years only about 21 make it off the wait list per year.</p>
<p>Waitlist deposit is not the same as a double-deposit to two acceptances. But they must get some of that (cause some are waitlisting and depositing). Otherwise, Midd's deposit would surely be more than $200.</p>
<p>Vicarious - "When you take an exam or turn in a paper, you are also not asked to sign an affidavit that it was all your own work." -- I believe most schools have an honor code that spell out explicity it is the students work. It seems no one here is aware of any rules re deposits.</p>
<p>I would suggest that some kids do double deposit because ( and possibly subconsciously) they are resentful of the entire process and their lack of control in it, and want to exert some control. I think the colleges have to look at the role they have played in the process. Massive recruiting programs? I am not talking about to minorities, or to underprivilidged, but the posters in my Ds high performing school from every college known to man. </p>
<p>This year, some one else here posted, that the SUNY process had so many applications they just looked at a "slate" of GPA, measure of difficulty of HS (school and course work) and SATs/ACTs. It is not the first time I heard it. So why do they ask for essays and EC's? Because they want to look like ivies but arent? Because aplications went up? Who knows.</p>
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They know that some kids who have put down deposits will not show. The WL system benefits them as it allows for greater yield %s and less finaid.
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</p>
<p>Of course, but virtually all of the ED withdrawls and "summer melt" that colleges count on is for perfectly legitimate reasons, not students holding spots at multiple institutions. </p>
<p>I don't think that you're in ambiguous territory when you put your signature on a form saying that you accept an offer of admission, and submit it, accompanied by a few hundred dollar's deposit. That's not a contract, but it's certainly an agreement that has a level of formality way beyond a handshake. And even though colleges could communicate better, I'm not sure I buy the notion that students really believe that they can accept two offers of admission; it's a bit like saying, "I didn't know I couldn't accept two marriage proposals; it's not written down anywhere."</p>
<p>Okay, so we know it's wrong/bad/unethical/illegal/reprehensible/criminal/heinous/punishable-by-death.</p>
<p>However:</p>
<p>I understand the desire to do it. M d was torn between two schools that could not have been more different and the differences reflected some hard choices she had to make about her course of study and maybe her life direction. She'd struggled with those polarities throughout the application process and went back and forth a million times. She knew she absolutely needed to get to college (for her own well-being), thus a gap year was considered but rejected. </p>
<p>Truly, the month or two we would have bought by double-accepting would not have helped her make that decision, but it FELT like it would. So we didn't double-accept but it was tempting. She picked one and went with it, went for a semester and then transferred to the other one. Bottom line was that there was really no way to decide without trying one of them on for size. And she is still a tiny bit pulled by the road not taken. The point being: There are roads not taken, and that is sometimes a hard part of the college decision making process.</p>
<p>But I totally get the desire to buy more time.</p>
<p>MM,</p>
<p>I dont beleive there was a signature line on form when we sent in Ds deposit.</p>
<p>And many schools could not accomodate all if everyone accepted -- so why is that not wrong?</p>
<p>It seems to me that the schools have orchastrated a system and then are annoyed when they dont have total control.</p>
<p>In practice, I don't think most college's really care all that much about this; the numbers are so small that it's nothing more than a nuisance. But the part that I find interesting is the range of attitudes in the thread. I'm sort of surprised at the number of who people see the system as so adversarial that it justifies actions that they probably wouldn't take if they were dealing with an individual that they'd run into again on the street. And surprised by the built-in assumption that if you described an exceptional situation to an admissions officer, they'd treat you were calling someone in a cubicle at a corporate call center.</p>
<p>kayf: I think you are right. There are probably some kids who double-deposit out of resentment against the process. I agree that colleges have created a system of admission that most benefits them. I have long wished for more colleges to adopt rolling admissions and greater transparency in the entire process. But I still think that intentionally double depositing 'to buy decision-making time' (as stated in the title of the thread) is wrong, and I do think that MOST people know that it is against the rules of the game. Sure, the rules are written by the colleges to favor them, but those are the rules the applicants have agreed to play by. Besides, as someone has mentioned before, by breaking this rule you are not hurting the college so much as you are hurting waitlisted applicants.</p>
<p>If I were an admissions officer and if I found out that a student intentionally double-deposited to buy time, I would push to rescind the offer of admission at my school and I would notify the other school too.</p>
<p>BTW, great post, Heron.</p>
<p>MM -- the atittude parents/kids take with adcom people is their applicant face. The atitude here is their anonymous, what they really think, face. </p>
<p>Vicarious -- it appears that the most any school has done is said fish or cut bait. And unless the deposit form explicity said something binding (as with EDs), I see rescinding as more reflective of a school's lack of integrity/planning, etc. </p>
<p>Heron, so your D had the hassel of transfering? If I thought there was a chance a double deposit could have solved that, I would have done it.</p>
<p>MM88-I totally agree. The schools are not the enemy, they want happy students. If you have reasons that prevent you from making an informed decision by May 1st-CALL THE SCHOOLS.</p>
<p>Those of you contemplating this to buy more time to visit should keep in mind that some schools suspend tours in May due to finals and graduation ceremonies. Also keep in mind that campuses start to empty out beginning early May. Your best visits will be in the next 30 days, before May 1st.</p>