Paying for 50k+ at elite college

[annasdad]

<p>

@Marian

We live in Maryland. Our flagship is quite a good one. But it’s not comparable to a top-20 university.

</p>

<p>

@2bornot2bivy

Both feel they made the best decision and their money is well spent.

</p>

<p>All the anecdotes in the world don’t compare to hard evidence:</p>

<p>

You can get an equivalent classroom education at most reasonably selective colleges and universities … In short, the classroom experience is similar at most universities in terms of professors’ commitment, course content, and teaching styles.</p>

<p>This conclusion may be hard for you to stomach; after all, everyone knows that Harvard is better than Podunk U. Let me back it up with some hard evidence. For the last several years, scholars have surveyed tens of thousands of students at over a thousand colleges and universities across the United States. They asked students about the degree of academic challenge, active and collaborative learning, student-faculty interaction, enriching educational experiences, and a supportive environment at their colleges. These are all the things you should be getting out of college. The results are striking. Let me first quote from the latest report, “NSSE [the National Survey of Student Engagement] has found that students attending the same institution differ from each other a lot more than the average students at that institution differs from those at other institutions.”</p>

<p>What this means is that the educational experiences of Harvard students differ more from each other than a typical student at Harvard differs from a typical student at Podunk U. And the difference is enormous. When comparing the degree to which students felt challenged or interacted with faculty, only 4 to 8 percent of the variation could be attributed to whether they attended Harvard or Podunk U. The rest—over 90 percent of the differences—was among students within institutions.</p>

<p>Or consider the conclusion of two researchers who reviewed hundreds of studies on the effects of universities: “on just about any outcome, and after taking account of the characteristics of the students enrolled, the dimensions along which American colleges are typically categorized, ranked, and studied, such as type of control, size, and selectivity, are simply not linked with important differences in student learning, change, or development.” As I said in the introduction, the difference is not between colleges, it is between students who suck the juice out of them and those who don’t. Universities are more or less the same. What is different is what students take away from them.

</p>

<p>[For the last paragraph, the author cites Pascarella and Terenzini, “How Colleges Affect Students,” vol. 2, “A Third Decade of Research,” (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2005), p. 641]</p>

<p>From Andrew Roberts “The Thinking Student’s Guide to College,” (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2010)</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

@JustTryHarder

I have two kids, D at a well-regarded state flagship and S at an elite (and expensive) smallish college.

</p>

<p>

@amtx

Size of classes is one part along with TA vs professors teaching, red tape, flexibility of programs, etc. … I strongly disagree with annasdad (with whom I often agree) because a large, less personal flagship state school would be disastrous for my younger daughter.

</p>

<p>Actually, amtc and JustTryHarder, we don’t disagree. I too believe there are real advantages to LACs, and I would be willing to pay more for my kids to attend LACs than to attend a state flagship. My issue is with the totally bogus claim that there are significant educational advantages to attending a large “elite” research university, versus a good public university. There simply aren’t, as the available research clearly shows, the opinions of the USNWR-obsessed to the contrary.</p>

<p>And also, there are many LACs where a kid who would have the stats for a so-called top-whatever university would qualify for a significant merit package, which would likely bring the cost down to the level of an in-state public university, and where the kid who is a motivated student can get a first-class education, the equal of that from a highly prestigious school.</p>

[Haystack]

<p>Here is one thing that I don’t understand; if the rigor at the top 20 schools is so much more than at a typical flagship, say the U Iowa; then how does an Iowa grad have any chance of succeeding in grad school at a top program given that the undergraduate prep was clearly not up to speed?</p>

[Hunt]

<p>

By analogy, if the world was such that you were only given one chance to see Europe (for $250K), or never ever see it, would you go? Would you care? Or would your life be complete without it so long as you could see NYC?

I think this is a pretty good analogy. It always amazes me that people are so allergic to debt for a college education–a one-time expense for most people–while they are quite willing to incur debt for new cars, houses, appliances, etc. This conversation comes up again and again, and it’s always the same. Some people just don’t understand why anybody would spend a bunch of money for an expensive luxury. Why would you buy a BMW when a Kia will get you around just as well? If you value the differences between a BMW and a Kia, and you can afford it, you buy the BMW. Why should college be any different? If all you care about is those measures on which elite colleges don’t provide any advantages, then, by all means, send your kid to the flagship. If you care about the differences, and can afford to pay the freight, then send your kid to an elite college. I do get a bit tired of the claim that there really isn’t any difference, though. It’s silly.</p>

[qdogpa]

<p>Annasdad keep beating the drum,lol… The top 100 schools could name their price and the people willng to pay rack rate would stretch from the glorious east coast to the rural midwest…</p>

<p>Hunt, well said…taking it further why pay XXX for a house in an upscale community when you can buy a similar house in a lousy community,afterall, it is a house</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

Why would you buy a BMW when a Kia will get you around just as well? If you value the differences between a BMW and a Kia, and you can afford it, you buy the BMW. Why should college be any different?

</p>

<p>Exactly. The very same mindset. The BMW provides no advantage except prestige. The elite college provides no advantage except prestige. Well said.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

Annasdad keep beating the drum,lol… The top 100 schools could name their price and the people willng to pay rack rate would stretch from the glorious east coast to the rural midwest…

</p>

<p>As Hunt points out, just like there’s a line at the BMW dealership, and for much the same reason.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@Momzie

These days, few people ONLY get a BA.

</p>

<p>The number of people age 25+ with graduate or professional degrees (21.1 million) is smaller than those whose highest degree is a bachelor’s degree (38.8 million).</p>

<p>[Educational</a> Attainment in the United States: 2010 - Detailed Tables - U.S. Census Bureau](<a href=“http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/education/data/cps/2010/tables.html]Educational”>http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/education/data/cps/2010/tables.html)</p>

[Hunt]

<p>See, if you really think the BMW provides no advantage except “prestige,” you just don’t know or care much about cars. That’s OK. People don’t have to care about the same stuff. You’re entitled to think that the food at Olive Garden is just as tasty and nourishing as the food at a much more expensive Italian restaurant, or that “Two Buck Chuck” is just as good as much more expensive wine. And it may well be that, to you, those wines do taste the same. That doesn’t mean they taste the same to everybody, though.</p>

[bovertine]

<p>

By analogy, if the world was such that you were only given one chance to see Europe (for $250K), or never ever see it, would you go?

</p>

<p>I’ve been to around 20 countries, on five continents. Primarily for work but I’ve foot the bill for a few trips. At my middle class income level (maybe bouncing on upper middle class) there is no way in the world I would pay $250K to go to Europe. I’ve never been to Africa, I’d like to go, but I’d never pay anything like that. Fortunately, I may still someday be able to go because I’m fairly certain you can do it somewhat more cheaply.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>Is this a ■■■■■ thread trying to incite a prestige war?</p>

<p>In any case, the premise might not be correct, and the question may not actually be that relevant to many students for some of the elite schools. Some of the elite schools are very generous with need-based aid, so families who are “needy” by their definition of “needy” are likely to find them less expensive than most state flagship universities. And those with incomes higher than what they consider “needy” probably wouldn’t blink an eye at paying list price (and may already be paying $35,000 per year for private high school).</p>

<p>But anyway, now everyone can go back to the usual prestige war…</p>

[geeps20]

<p>I highly doubt anyone here who opted to pay full price at an elite will now say it was a bad idea. Human tendency is to accept a decision as the right one after it is made…</p>

[Consolation]

<p>OP, presumably you would have living costs at the less expensive school, so although still cheaper it would not be $10K vs $50K.</p>

<p>I think Marian makes an excellent pont: most of us do not live in the states with the great public flagships. It is easy to say “pick the flagship” if the flagship in question is U VA or U Mich. It is not so obvious if the flagship is U Mass or U Montana. The only sweeping generalization that is really valid is “it depends.”</p>

<p>If you want more valuable advice, I suggest you name the schools in question, as well as the real COAs.</p>

<p>

See, if you really think the BMW provides no advantage except “prestige,” you just don’t know or care much about cars. That’s OK. People don’t have to care about the same stuff. You’re entitled to think that the food at Olive Garden is just as tasty and nourishing as the food at a much more expensive Italian restaurant, or that “Two Buck Chuck” is just as good as much more expensive wine. And it may well be that, to you, those wines do taste the same. That doesn’t mean they taste the same to everybody, though.

</p>

<p>Exactly. And then there are those who can taste the difference, but either cannot or will not pay $40 a bottle.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@Hunt

Why would you buy a BMW when a Kia will get you around just as well? If you value the differences between a BMW and a Kia, and you can afford it, you buy the BMW.

</p>

<p>Actually, I find that the Kia lineup has more desirable cars to me than the BMW lineup.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

See, if you really think the BMW provides no advantage except “prestige,” you just don’t know or care much about cars.

</p>

<p>Hmm … does the Kia get you from point A to point B reliably, safely, and economically? Would the BMW get you from point A to point B more reliably, more safely, or more economically?</p>

<p>Evidence, please?</p>

<p>Does the UConn degree qualify a motivated student for a good job or admission to a good graduate program? World the Yale degree qualify the same student for a better job or admission to a better graduate program?</p>

<p>Evidence, please.</p>

<p>Hey, this analogy just keeps getting better! Just like people make up bogus reasons to justify overspending on cars, they make up bogus reasons to justify overspending on colleges!</p>

[Iglooo]

<p>

…most of us do not live in the states with the great public flagships.

</p>

<p>This will depend on what we call great but I think UMD is also good, Texas is good, so are Washington, NY, CA as well as in PA. I think that covers more than half of HS grads. Sciences research facilities in state flagships may even be better at state than at LACs.</p>

[qdogpa]

<p>I wonder what the US economy would look like if we all lived the way Annasdad believes? Everyone living in similar small homes,driving the same vehicles,attending the same priced colleges…sounds like socialism…our economy under that scenario would make todays economy look like the roaring twenties ;)</p>

<p>SPENDING drives our economy, even those that attended stae schools know that… ;)</p>

<p>That said, spend only what you can afford, debt is a bad idea,lol</p>

[Hunt]

<p>

Hmm … does the Kia get you from point A to point B reliably, safely, and economically? Would the BMW get you from point A to point B more reliably, more safely, or more economically?

Your question proves my point. The BMW has more comfortable seats, a better sound system, more convenient cup-holders, etc. Those differences may not be worth the price difference to you, but they are actual differences that some people care about, and if those people can afford to buy those luxuries, why not?</p>

<p>The big difference between luxury cars and luxury colleges is that the car dealers don’t give tremendous discounts to poor purchasers.</p>

[Marian]

<p>

Does the UConn degree qualify a motivated student for a good job or admission to a good graduate program? World the Yale degree qualify the same student for a better job or admission to a better graduate program?

</p>

<p>Companies in certain industries – including the consulting firm that one of my kids works for – do not recruit at UConn and its equivalents. They do recruit at Yale and its equivalents and at slightly less prestigious private schools (e.g., the lower Ivies, Wash U). Some of them also recruit at the very best state schools such as UVa and UNC.</p>

<p>On the other hand, my husband, a UConn graduate, got into a top-10 Ph.D. program in his major, many years ago. To the best of my knowledge, this would still be possible.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

This will depend on what we call great but I think UMD is also good, Texas is good, so are Washington, NY, CA as well as in PA. I think that covers more than half of HS grads.

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<p>Not to mention Michigan, Illinois, Virginia, North Carolina, maybe even Wisconsin …</p>