<p>Is the only goal of college to get a good job or admission to a good graduate program? Lots of people on here seem to have kids heading for med school and frequently the advice is to go to the most economical program possible because the name of the school won’t matter for admissions. </p>
<p>Is there any value whatsoever in these future doctors doing anything other than the minimum pre-med requirements? And getting their As?</p>
<p>Suppose the future MD loves Shakespeare or maybe Proust and wants the opportunity to study those authors in college? Does it matter who is teaching the class? It is the exact same text. Does it matter who else is in the class? </p>
<p>Is exploring these authors a waste of time?<br>
Is it a ridiculous pretension? :)</p>
<p>Oh, now lacking any evidence at all of one’s position, we turn to straw men, and suggest that annasdad holds a position he has never stated (nor held). (Not to mention a complete misunderstanding of the definition of “socialism,” which deals with the ownership of the means of production, but never mind that.) Annasdad thinks that it’s great that people who want to thrown their money away on overpriced cars or houses or colleges have the freedom to do so. But where annasdad takes issue with the prestige hounds is when they start claiming that there is a rational basis for their buying decisions, rather than pure emotion.</p>
<p>annasdad, one problem with your position is that you’re only interested in one kind of “hard evidence”–economic outcomes. For me, there is other relevant hard evidence. For example, the fact that average SAT scores and achievement in ECs is significantly higher at Harvard than at Podunk U. is a feature that I’m willing to pay for, even if long-term financial success may not be that different.</p>
<p>There may be some argument that for the same money BMW is no better than Kia. But you have to be totally lacking in aesthetic sensibility and appreciation of beauty to think a new cheap Kia is as good as a new expensive BMW.</p>
<p>The rational basis is that the experience is different. Driving a Kia is not the same as driving a BMW. Living in a manufactured home is not the same as living in a custom home. Going to Cal State Fullerton is a different experience from going to Yale.</p>
<p>I suppose one TA is as good as the next TA. Or one professor who’d really rather be doing research than teaching undergraduates is as good as the next professor who’d really rather be doing research than teaching undergraduates.</p>
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<p>Of course, everybody knows that everybody worth knowing goes to a top-whatever university, right?</p>
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<p>There are those who would say yes, but I’m not one of them.</p>
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<p>No, but what’s ridiculous is your implication that only at a prestige factory can one engage in meaningful study of Shakespeare or Proust.</p>
<p>Anna, I think it’s crazy to spend 50K on a car or 100K renovating a kitchen and bathrooms as so many friends and neighbors have done… and they think I’m crazy for having paid full freight for my kids at private colleges. I don’t tell them that formica is just as nice as granite for countertops, and they don’t try to tell me that U Conn is the same experience as Yale. </p>
<p>You are absolutely entitled to your opinion on private colleges and the dopes who send their kids there. But to claim that there is no difference in the experience and education between U Mass and MIT or U Conn and Yale or Rutgers and Princeton (just to pick on three State U’s and their “elite” neighbors down the highway) is not rational. Whether those differences matter to you-- whether you would pay for those differences- those are matters of choice for you and your family. But that doesn’t mean that the differences are “pure emotion”.</p>
<p>For one thing- a very high percentage of the kids who matriculate at these three privates will end up with a degree at the end of four years, and will be able to register for the courses they need in the required sequence. I know many kids at U Mass and U Conn who are now working on “plan B”- either an extra year, or a different major, or some combination thereof when they couldn’t get the courses they needed for their intended major. The parents are furious- nobody budgets for 5 years for a BA, whether the college costs 55K a year or 30K or 20K. The colleges don’t tell you upfront, “You should know the typical Comp Sci graduate needs an extra semester or two for a BA”; it’s one of the nasty secrets the kids discover when they’re registering for second semester.</p>
<p>^I could engage in a meaningful study in a book group that included my plumber but it wouldn’t be the same as studying it with someone who had spent 30 years seriously immersed in the study. It is a different experience…</p>
<p>it is an experience some value
though, of course, some just want to brag about it :)</p>
<p>Yet another straw man, in the absence of evidence. I point you back to the study I quoted earlier:</p>
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<p>Nary a word about economic outcomes.</p>
<p>Curious though, that the advocates of prestige factories are often quick to cite the supposed economic advantages of a degree from those places.</p>
<p>OP, look first to budget issues, both what your family can afford to pay, and what the colleges say that your family can afford to pay. If you will be a full-pay student on the hook for $50k+ a year, then it’s only worth attending such a school if your family can afford to pay without anyone going into big-time debt. My personal feelings are that parents shouldn’t take on undue hardship to fund a full-pay kid. I’m willing to give up an overseas vacation, but not things like saving for retirement. </p>
<p>I tell my kids that they can have anything they want…they just can’t have everything they want. Mick Jagger sang about this. Depending on your family’s situation, the expensive college might be possible, but that would mean you’d have to give up something else, like having resources for graduate or professional school, or a fund to help start a business. </p>
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<p>Nah, it’s that BMWs are incredible road machines. You buy one and drive one because you love the feel of a performance sports car. Even if you carefully obey traffic laws, there is most definitely a difference. </p>
<p>I’m not a BMW owner, and owning one is pretty low on my “that’d be nice” list. Still, I did once drive a Z2, and totally, totally enjoyed the experience. :)</p>
<p>Why is it “not rational” when the study I cited above found exactly that?</p>
<p>It seems what is “not rational” is to claim otherwise, in the absence of any evidence. If you have evidence, why not simply shut me up by citing it?</p>
<p>Idon’t purchase anything for prestige, not my cars,home or clothes, and certainly not their education…However, there are reasons why things are more costly, and perhaps some people wouldn’t pay for the upgrades and luxuries…I believe you get what you pay for…and comparing a Kia to a BMW is ludicrous</p>
<p>Annasdad, the “hard evidence” you keep citing is nonsensical, because it is asking students at Harvard and Podunk to “evaluate” their experiences, and then assuming that when they give the same answers, they mean the same. If half of students at Harvard say the work isn’t very challenging, and half of students at Podunk say the same, you think that means the work at the two schools is equally challenging? Hmmm.</p>
<p>My D1 had a deposit down on a 50k+ school but changed her mind at the last minute (actually came off a wait list) to go OOS to a “prestigious” public. Her experience sounds VERY similar to some of the things I’m reading here about some of the elite privates as it relates to small classes, very close access to professors/mentor, etc. I don’t know that it would (or wouldn’t) be the same at any other flagship. I think she is very well prepared for grad school, but we won’t know the result of that for a few months at least.</p>
<p>I don’t think you can really categorically INSIST that “you get what you pay for” when we are talking about education. Certainly many of these elite privates are fantastic schools, but to generalize about the strength of the education based on the price tag is absolutely absurd.</p>
<p>I have been googling the book “The Thinking Student’s Guide to College,” (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2010) and reading excerpts but can’t figure out how to copy it to post here. I wanted to copy the section where it talked about how many colleges use the exact same textbook but it might matter who was presenting the material. It also talks about how some tippy top students will be competitive enough to benefit from tippy top resources.</p>
<p>For some people, “elite” is top 25 or top 50. For some, it’s the local state u. Then again, some universities are so self-absorbed that they consider themselves “the elite of the elite” and go out and market up a storm. It all depends on your perspective. What may be elite to me may be mediocre to someone else (and vice versa).</p>
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<p>I can see that being true in grind circles.</p>
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<p>If you want small classes, go to community college and save some money. Professors will be happy you take an interest. Plus, there are 60 spots for what would have been a 300+ lecture class at the (exorbitantly expensive) private school a few miles away. :D</p>
<p>I think everyone is talking around the same point. Some people prefer higher ticket items that others don’t necessary value. People spend money on things I’d need to be paid to wear or do or eat.</p>
<p>Of course kids do well in all environments. Hubby and I went to schools I’ve never seen mentioned on cc, and we attended public schools our entire lives. We now are successful adults, with educated friends, a nice home, and kids going to good schools. So clearly anyone can thrive under any circumstance. It’s a matter of preference and if it’s a priority for you and your family. </p>
<p>I made it from point a to point b in my piece of crap geo storm, I make it there now in my lexus. If the two were side by side today I know which car I’d get into. But if I didn’t have any money, I’d be thrilled to have that geo storm.</p>
<p>I don’t think any adult thinks it is wise for a student to spend 200k on undergrad if they didn’t have the money to do so. However, if the parents can swing it, the decision shouldn’t only be based on money.</p>
<p>The NSSE asks questions about a number of factors that affect student learning, and the data from the NSSE correlates very highly with the measured gains in critical thinking skills measured by the CLA. It’s much more than just asking students subjective questions about the rigors of their coursework.</p>
but it wouldn’t be the same as studying it with someone who had spent 30 years seriously immersed in the study. It is a different experience…</p>
Mick Jagger sang about this.