Paying for 50k+ at elite college

[annasdad]

<p>

@ucbalumnus

Surely that course selection is sufficient to prepare a motivated student to get a high quality education at almost any college, including the mid-level selectivity directional state universities, right?</p>

<p>A student at that school will have access to English courses, math through precalculus (which is all that is expected by schools other than a very few of those elite schools that are “too expensive”), all three foundational sciences (biology, chemistry, and physics), and art and music (and presumably the history and social studies that nearly all states have as a high school graduation requirement).

</p>

<p>Let’s see - at our local high school, biology and chemistry classes are taught by a teacher with a bachelor’s degree in chemistry who had six hours of physics and three of biology in college. At the nearby non-flagship state university, the biology, chemistry, and physics departments are each staffed by a number of professors with PhDs in those subjects. If you really think those situations are in any way analogous, then there’s not a thing I can say to help you see the difference.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>Red herrings galore. This thread has degenerated into irrelevant comments about where my daughter goes to high school - with still no refutation of the multiple pieces of evidence I cited that shows that a motivated student can get a high-quality education at almost any college, and, the conclusion of two researchers who reviewed hundreds of studies on the effects of universities (as reported by Andrew Roberts): "on just about any outcome, and after taking account of the characteristics of the students enrolled, the dimensions along which American colleges are typically categorized, ranked, and studied, such as type of control, size, and selectivity, are simply not linked with important differences in student learning, change, or development.”</p>

[oldfort]

<p>There is no red herring here. You posted on CC the kind of school your daughter is attending, you posted about how much you are spending on your kids secondary education. According to you, a motivated student could get as much as he/she wants from almost any school. It doesn’t appear it is the case when it comes to your own kids because you do not think your own local public school is good enough. The only reason it is not good enough is because unlike the non-flagship state college

the biology, chemistry, and physics departments are each staffed by a number of professors with PhDs in those subjects.

Why should a high school science teacher have a PhD?</p>

[bovertine]

<p>I don’t see why people are having such a hard time understanding annasdad’s rationale vis a vis his daughter’s high school education. </p>

<p>He has been meticulous in saying a student can get a good education at almost any college. This implies that he does believe there are some colleges where a student will not get a decent education. To me, he merely believes there are far fewer truly hideous colleges than there are horrific high schools. Also, he apparently believes his local public school falls firmly in the horrible camp.
His point about the local non-flagship university is that even there, at what many here on CC would consider a substandard institution; they require that the instructors possess PhDs in the subjects they teach. At his local public high school they have nothing resembling a reasonable standard for secondary school teachers. The science teachers have completely inadequate science education, at least according to him. It would be comparable to university full of professors with degrees in subjects other than those they teach.</p>

<p>As far as I can tell, those are the facts as he sees them, and that’s the reason why he spends money to send his kid to school (far less than 50K a year BTW), but might not believe that sort of investment is reasonable for college, given that he also believes a significant number of perfectly adequate cheaper alternative exist.<br>
He may or may not be correct on the facts, and you may not agree with his reasoning. But based on what he believes are the facts, his rationale is crystal clear to me.</p>

<p>I don’t see what’s so hard to understand.</p>

[geeps20]

<p>^ I agree…some people just like to attack, they enjoy it I guess</p>

[oldfort]

<p>

he merely believes there are far fewer truly hideous colleges than there are horrific high schools.

</p>

<p>It is because most public high schools are free, and even hideous colleges cost money.</p>

[MomofWildChild]

<p>Here’s some news- many students are only somewhat motivated. Many (most) have never lived away from home, may be solid students who did well in high school, but when they get to college things can really change. Just look at all the threads here on CC as well as all the families who have kids bomb out freshman year, and, in many cases, come home. The percentage of college freshmen who are going to create a great path for themselves at a state school or podunk u is not high. Many will do OK, but the way we talk here you would think every kid is going to cure cancer. I think the odds are better for a good student if he/she is surrounded my mostly like-minded peers. Even then, plenty of kids struggle at the highly-selective schools.</p>

[thumper1]

<p>The college choices different families make have been attacked by certain posters. There is no right or wrong here. If one person thinks that it is worthwhile to spend whatever amount on their child’s college education, I do not think that should be criticized by others just because they don’t feel this is beneficial.</p>

[skrlvr]

<p>But the authors/editors of the book <em>How Colleges Affect Students</em> also say a few sentences from the ones annasdad quote: </p>

<p>

That is not to say that any one institution resembles any other institution in its power to affect learning. Nor does it mean that students complete their education with the same level of accomplishment across outcome areas not matter which school they attend

</p>

<p>and </p>

<p>

we also know which factors do differentiate among educationally effective institutions…student involvement in the academic and non-academic systems of the institution, the nature and frequency of student contact with peers and faculty members, interdisciplinary or integrated core curricula that emphasize making explicit connections across course and among ideas and disciplines, pedagogies that encourage active student engagement in learning and encourage application of what is being learned in real and meaningful settings, campus environments that emphasize scholarship and provide opportunities for students to encounter different kinds of people and ideas, and environments that encourage and support exploration, whether intellectual or personal

</p>

<p>I think what those authors are saying is do not use selectivity and expense as a proxy for quality. Dig deeper and look more at what the institution offers with respect to those qualities listed in the second quote.</p>

<p>And it doesn’t mean that for some particular student X, X will do well no matter where X goes. There’s more to it than that.</p>

[LongPrime]

<ol>
<li>Are you happy at the school?</li>
<li>Are you making friends?</li>
<li>Are you learning something?</li>
<li>Will you happy on graduation?</li>
<li>Will you be happy in your 1st position (job,business,venture)</li>
<li>Did you make a book of GF/BF’s?</li>
<li>Don’t worry about the P’s. Their job is to say Y/N</li>
<li>Student’s job is to do 1-6, and regardless of the #7</li>
</ol>

<p>I think some LT, CC’ers have me on ignore. :(</p>

[jym626]

<p>Naah, no one has you on ignore, LP.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>Me, because he said my daughters wouldn’t make it on his list.</p>

[patsmom]

<p>I think LP’s son ought to be introduced to MiamiDAP’s daughter. There’s a match made in heaven…</p>

[t-boneParent]

<p>Thank you, Thumper …well said!</p>

[eastcoascrazy]

<p>I’m renaming this thread: “The Neverending Story”. It just goes on and on, entrenched opinions never change, and the underlying fears of the consequences of our decisions keep simmering under the surface. So many of us are so darned insecure about our own decisions that we can’t admit that it is possible for someone else to look at the same set of, say, college choices, and come to a completely different conclusion. So we just brow beat each other hoping for submission.</p>

[GraniteStateMom]

<p>Jym says: “I would not encourage a student to spend mega thousands on an elite school if their goal was to be a personal trainer or physical therapist. That said, maybe they’d make friends with some rich kid who had the contacts/connections to help them open a gym and follow their dream. Stranger things have happened.”</p>

<p>Sorry this is off topic, but I feel the need to set record straight about the above comments.
As a physical therapist, this post struck a nerve. My initial reaction was to let it go; after all, none of us know the extent of education required for all career paths. I’d be horrified, though, if anyone read this and believed the ignorance of the statement about the implied level of education necessary to become a PT or career paths available after graduation. First of all, in order practice, the current level of education required to sit for the national PT boards is a doctoral degree. Many fine, accredited programs exist in both state schools and top tier private schools such as Columbia, Duke, and WUSTL. Secondly, few of us work in gyms and even fewer of have ever had a dream of opening a gym. We provide medically necessary services in a variety of specialty areas including orthopedics, neurology, pediatrics, sports medicine, and cardio-pulmonary rehabilitation. We work in all sorts of places including hospitals, clinics, private practices, and schools. Personally, I work in pediatrics with multiply handicapped children with my main focus on neurological rehabilitation. In addition to holding undergraduate and graduate degrees, I have taken hundreds of hours of continuing education courses during my 20+ years practicing to hone my skills.</p>

<p>Is it necessary to attend an elite school to be a physical therapist? Heck no. Unfortunately the tuition for graduate school doesn’t vary too much whether you attend Duke or University of Alabama from OOS (and for the record, both of these schools have excellent programs). And the competition for spots can be tough. Waaayyyyy back in the day when I attended Columbia for grad school, there were thousands of applicants for 50 spots in the class. It’s worse now. So wherever a students attends UG, they need to be well rounded, have leadership experience, and do well in prerequisite courses.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, does the prestige of the school attended matter? For my profession, I would have to say no. Every practicing PT is held to the same standards for licensure (which vary slightly by state). The practice I work for has about 20 PTs on staff. I have no idea where at least 18 of them went to school. It’s just not a topic of discussion - no one cares. We all know, however, which therapists have excellent skills and which have merely good skills. </p>

<p>Please folks, if you are going to make disparaging statements about a field of study, at least know what you’re talking about. Better yet, don’t make the comments in the first place.</p>

[jym626]

<p>Good grief. It was just an example, and it wasn’t meant to disparage any profession. Sorry if you took it wrong. Let it go. Seriously. It was days ago too. Really, please don’t stew about this. I am quite familiar with healthcare and boards and licensure, and earning doctoral degrees, but that has nothing to do with what this thread is about. This thread started out about one poor, long gone poster who wanted an opinion about spending money on different schools. Its veered all over the place and touched lots of nerves for lots of people for lots of reasons. So actually if it touched a nerve for you, granite, welcome to the club!!</p>

[GraniteStateMom]

<p>Thanks for the warm welcome to the club Jym! Happy to go off topic with the rest of you lol.</p>

<p>Yes, it did touch a nerve, but, fear not, I haven’t been stewing about it having just been catching up on this thread today.</p>

[jym626]

<p>Glad to hear all is well :)</p>

<p>My point back then (and whatever example is selected will usually hit a nerve with someone) is that this thread is about where someone chooses to go for undergrad and if it is worth the cost, and in some professions it may not matter. For undergrad. As you said.

At the end of the day, does the prestige of the school attended matter? For my profession, I would have to say no

As we’ve said, for those pursuing (for example) finance, the elite pedigree (uh oh, that will offend someone ) may matter more than if someone wants to pursue a professional degree somewhere else. When I was in grad school, my classmates my particular year all happened to be from top, name schools, but I think that was a fluke and not a consistent pattern. My post # 410 summarizes my general opinion on this issue.</p>

<p>Hope that helps, and again, welcome to the club :)</p>

<p>I sent you a pm.</p>

[MomofWildChild]

<p>GraniteStateMom- I think what jym was saying (as she has clarified) is exactly what my sister (a very prominent Occupational Therapist/speaker) says about OT training. She said the PA non-flagship state schools are better for undergrad than any elite school and then there are a few highly regarded graduate programs that are not what you would generally expect.</p>