Paying for 50k+ at elite college

[LongPrime]

<h1>473, patsmom</h1>

<p>Probably won’t happen. DS, doesn’t really like doctors.</p>

[LongPrime]

<p>GraniteStateMom, helloooooo.
You got D?</p>

[GraniteStateMom]

<p>I have 2!!! :)</p>

[thumper1]

<p>GSM…LP has been trying to be a matchmaker for a while:)</p>

[jym626]

<p>GraniteStatemom’s are still in HS, LP. Probably a tad too young for your DS.</p>

[gloworm]

<p>Sometimes I decide to read a long thread, and it then gets shut down, so I figure if this one does, I wanna be on it!</p>

<p>Way OT, but after reading a thread on the Caf</p>

[GA2012MOM]

<p>Doesn’t like Dr.s? Cross my legal age D off the list. Why were oldforts D’s not considered?</p>

[LongPrime]

<p>Ga2012mom, Perhaps you could persuade me.
DS’s grandparents were Md’s (3x). and DW is of course the resident witchdoc. :)</p>

[LongPrime]

<p>i am flattered that you had place your dd on the list.
as for oldfort’s Dds -they have bfs.</p>

[MisterK]

<p>Did the parents’ forum just degrade into preteen IM-speak for the day? I can’t always decipher LP’s posts even when he’s trying! (she?)</p>

[musicmom]

<p>Wow, dropped in here and find I’m on Jupiter.
And I don’t speak Jupiter-ese.</p>

[Iglooo]

<p>Or more like on Venus?</p>

[lake42ks]

<p>

Here’s some news- many students are only somewhat motivated.

</p>

<p>Highly motivated and capable students are rarer. If there are any, they surely would succeed at almost any university. That I agree with annasdad.</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>

@MomofWildChild

The percentage of college freshmen who are going to create a great path for themselves at a state school or podunk u is not high. Many will do OK, but the way we talk here you would think every kid is going to cure cancer. I think the odds are better for a good student if he/she is surrounded my mostly like-minded peers. Even then, plenty of kids struggle at the highly-selective schools.

</p>

<p>What I find so deeply misinformed—and frankly insulting–about this is the casual lumping together of all “state schools” with “podunk u’s.” </p>

<p>Look, if kids are floundering at a school it should be reflected in freshman retention rates and graduation rates. And on that score the top state universities—the UC Berkeleys and the Michigans and the UVAs–are right there with some very fancy, and very pricy, private universities. UC Berkeley’s freshman retention rate is 97%—same as Harvard, better than Cornell, Emory, Georgetown, and Carnegie Mellon. Wake Forest (94%), Brandeis (93%), NYU (92%), Case Western (92%), George Washington (92%), and the University of Miami (905) may have a bit of a problem on that score; UCLA (97%), Michigan (96%), UVA (97%), and UNC-Chapel Hill (97%) not so much. Now as you go down the pecking order, freshman retention becomes more and more of a problem—but that’s true at both publics (U Iowa 84%, Alabama 85%, Mizzou 85%, Arkansas 83%, Ole Miss 80%, Kansas 79%) and privates (Tulane 89%, Baylor 85%, Drexel 84%, New School 81%).</p>

<p>Point is, this isn’t a public-v.-private thing. The gulf between an Ole Miss and a UC Berkeley is roughly as great as that between Hofstra and Harvard, both in terms of the caliber of the students attending, their degree of motivation and focus, and in ultimate educational outcomes.</p>

[LongPrime]

<p>mrK.
you gotta know the code.
found as a permanent sticky, 1st thread, p. forum.</p>

<p>doing this on Kfire, with self correcting.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>bclintonk - I just checked Berkeley (I think is a very fine institution) graduation rate after 4 years for first time freshmen is around 70%, but 95% of them are still enrolled at a 4 year college.
<a href=“http://opa.berkeley.edu/statistics/UndergraduateProfile.pdf[/url]”>http://opa.berkeley.edu/statistics/UndergraduateProfile.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
Highest 4 year graduation rates:
[Highest</a> 4-Year Graduation Rates | Rankings | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate]Highest”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate)
most public schools didn’t even make it on the list, Berkeley included. The reason could be due to lack of funding there are not as many courses offered, therefore it takes students longer to fulfill their requirements. This shows no matter how motivated a student is, if there is no room in a class there is just no room.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>lake42ks:

If there are any, they surely would succeed at almost any university.

If your kid couldn’t get into a class, and need to take fluff courses in order to qualify as a full time student, I think it could be very frustrating and demoralizing.</p>

[jym626]

<p>I don’t think mowc is “lumping all state schools with podunk U’s”. I read it as giving an example. To be fair, the term “podunk U” was used by the author of the book AD keeps quoting (albeit out of context). My read of mowc’s post is that whether a person goes to a state u or a noname u (not parsing out any particular school, top flagship or otherwise), there will be a handful of students at any school that will rise to the top and shine as they blaze an academic path for themselves. There will be top, middle and bottom students at ANY school, and those who are likely to be top students and make the best of their educational opportunities will likely be proactive aned blaze that path wherever they go. </p>

<p>What AD is distorting in his posts is implying that a student can get an equal education and opportunities at all schools. That is not what Andrew Roberts is saying. His premise is that to get the best education , unless a student is a go-getter and proactive , they will have a harder time getting the personal attention and accessing the opportunities that exist at a large U. He argues (stating the obvious) that at small teaching-oriented colleges

almost all of the classes are taught by professors. Many more, probably most, of them will be small seminars. You will likely get to know many of your professors personally or at least have the opportunity to do so. You will probably meet them walking around campus since these schools are often in small towns. And your professors will return the favor. They will learn your name and something about you. They are not required to do as much research and are encouraged to be good teachers. In fact, many of them end up at such schools precisely because they enjoy teaching and are good at it.

He cites the surveys (thats not research, thats a survey) which ask

students whether during their undergraduate studies anyone other than fellow students took “a special interest” in their work, whether there “was someone you could turn to for advice or for general support or encouragement.” At small liberal arts colleges, 62 percent of students answered that a faculty member took an interest in them versus 36 percent for public research universities and 41 percent for private research universities. Incidentally, Ivy League schools came in near the bottom with 37 percent.

While some may find these numbers disappointing, they are not surprising. I recall during our visit at MIT, the secretary excitedly pointed out the nobel laureate who walked right by us. Needless to say, he didn’t even acknowledge our presence.</p>

<p>Andrew Roberts says

Note that what I have set out here is a contrast of ideal types—the difference between the prototypical large research-oriented university and the prototypical small teaching-oriented college. In fact, over the past twenty or so years these distinctions have been breaking down. Large universities have started to offer more college-type experiences with smaller seminars and greater contact with faculty (though they have not forsaken research or graduate students). Some offer special honors programs or liberal arts colleges embedded within the university. Conversely, small colleges have begun to require a much greater research commitment from faculty. Differences between the two types may thus be on the decline, but they still exist.</p>

<p>The takeaway point for you is to determine whether you have the self-confidence and talent to take advantage of the resources of a large research university or whether you need personal attention to be more accessible and competition less cutthroat. To put it more bluntly than I should, do you want the floor of the New York Stock Exchange where fortunes are made by those with the talent to succeed or a greenhouse where gardeners tend to all of their plants?

</p>

<p>Andrew Roberts attended smaller schools (Williams and Princeton) and teaches at a smaller school (Northwestern). He argues that a student will find it easier to get personal attention at a smaller school. Well, duh. This book focuses on the “purpose” of an education being to learn to communicate, think and build character, and how to achieve that. </p>

<p>So how does one decide which schools are the “almost” any school that AD thinks a student can get a quality education? That vagueness makes the point irrelevant, IMO. </p>

<p>As for retention rates, there are many variables tha affect that. I think that cost is a huge factor, and probably contributes to the private schools having, in some cases, lower retention rates than might be expected.</p>

<p>So bottom line, and hopefully this circular argument will come to a close somehow, is that the highly motivated student can probably blaze a path no matter where they go, and will make the best of any school they attend. But there are some circumstances where a name school might offer better opportunities (eg job placement, recruiting on campus, etc) than other schools, but that may not be enough of a reason to attend a school that is out of one’s budget. Period, The end.</p>

[Iglooo]

<p>^^Oh, IDK. It looks like 70% of kids could do it at Berkeley. Doesn’t that mean most kids could? What’s the big deal? That it’s not 90%? If my kid doesn’t belong to the bottom 30% at Berkeley, she will graduate in 4 years compared at Harvard she will graduate if she is in the 90%. I sure hope my kid is at least average wherever she ends up.</p>

[redpoint]

<p>I am sure (although I’m not backing this up with stats, only my imagination) that there are plenty of Podunk Us out there where a student can get more personal attention from professors, thus more inspiration and motivation, than he or she would at a large state U. (not that I’m going that route).</p>