My DD will be a legacy and a development applicant to Penn (if she applies). We’ve been looking at smaller colleges such as Amherst, Haverford, Swarthmore, etc but my daughter has a much higher chance of getting into Penn than she does anywhere else we’ve looked. As a freshman at Penn, is it relatively easy to make new friends at such a big school? And what is the overall culture if it can be easily defined? My DD has always attended a small private school and the thought of a big university is a bit intimidating. We’re Jewish and one aspect of Penn that appeals to my DD is the large Jewish population (there are few Jewish people where we live). My daughter will be pre-law with an undecided major. My husband recalls Penn as being quite cutthroat both as an undergraduate and in medical school. Is this still the case? Although DD can be competitive, she ultimately wants to be part of a warm and supportive college community. Any feedback given is much appreciated. Thanks!
If she is a development admit at Penn, she likely has a very low chance at the other schools that you have listed unless you are willing to make a big donation to make her one there also. From a friends perspective, I don’t think that a bigger school is harder.
Eeyore123, Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be implying that because she’s a Development admit at Penn, that she’s somehow disadvantaged in applying at the other schools listed. If so, please enlighten me because I don’t understand your logic. My daughter is a strong candidate at any of the schools listed; she has a high GPA, top SAT scores, and solid extracurriculars. However, given how competitive admissions has become, I believe most students have a relatively low chance of gaining admittance to these schools, no matter how impressive their resumes.
Most development admits really don’t stand a chance without the money hook. That is why their parents are buying their way into the school. Maybe you are different, I don’t know.
@Eeyore123, why would you assume that because her parents have supported their alma mater that she would not be qualified?
Lots of kids are “all that” including many whose parents went to very selective schools.Those kids often have the advantage of growing up in a house in which education is prioritized and enrichment is the norm. And yes, where achievement is expected. Not surprisingly, they have compelling applications as a result.
It’s easy to envy them, but it’s wrong to put them down.
@Eeyore123 You’re quite wrong in this case. I recommend that in the future you gather facts before making such an outrageous assumption. My daughter would qualify as a Development admit because her grandparents have donated heavily to the Penn medical school, including funding a full-tuition scholarship to medical school every year for the last 17 years. DD is a legacy admit because:
Father: Penn undergrad/Penn medical school
Aunt: Penn undergrad/Penn law school
Aunt: Bryn Mawr undergrad/Penn law school
Uncle: Penn undergrad/Harvard medical school
Grandfather: Penn undergrad/Penn medical school
Grandmother: Penn undergrad
Lest you think these family members were admitted due to development, you’d be incorrect as they all graduated more than 20 years ago. The reason I mentioned development in my post is to say that DD has an advantage in admissions, yet we don’t think it’s the right school for her. I was soliciting opinions from people who know the current culture of the university. The development aspect of the application would simply be an additional hook for a strong legacy candidate. We’re not exactly a family of dummies who need to “buy their way in” to a good school.
easy all- this is a simple misunderstanding, nothing outrageous about it, and no reason to be offended.
OP, when you lead with ‘will be a legacy and development applicant’, follow with ‘has much less chance at these other schools’, and don’t give info on stats it is not unreasonable for other readers to think that the development angle is the applicants best card (there are posters on CC who are posting exactly that).
If you had opened with ‘my daughter has competitive stats for these schools, plus the bump of legacy & development at this one- but we are worried that the one where she has the bump may be too big for her’ imo you would have gotten a very different response.
So, to get back to your real question: UPenn does have a lot of pre-professional students, and many are very determined to do well in undergrad for grad school applications. However, like all schools, there are plenty of very nice, very supportive students who are more collaborative than competitive with each other.
The job - as it is even at a small college- is to find your people. The UPenn Hillel group is a great place to start, as are other student activity groups. Most of the UPenn students that I know who have come from small private schools (under 100 / year) have settled quickly and happily (n.b., most of them are somewhat but not hugely extroverted). The great thing is that with visits your daughter can get a feel for how it seems to her. One of mine did an overnight and/or sat in on a class at UPenn and Swarthmore (and others, but those are the ones relevant to you), and came away with a very clear preference.
OP - You may want to post this in the U Penn specific forum to get more feedback on the school culture. My daughter would have been a third generation legacy at Cornell and opted not to apply. Just wasn’t a good fit for her. Broke a lot of hearts in the extended family but in the end, she needed to land where she felt she could fly and find her people. Happy searching!
I was initially going to respond to you directly as we know a couple of current U Penn students, but then I decided I really don’t know enough about their experience to say much of value here – so instead, I went browsing on the U Penn board to see if there might be much that is useful. Looks like you have to get past the recent spate of rising seniors asking for chances and, around page 4 on that board, there are some threads about campus culture, including one which includes a link and some student newspaper opinions about campus culture.
@collegemom3717
I appreciate the time you took to reply to my post and I’ll take your advice on being careful with wording (I’m new here). I also appreciate the feedback you gave about Penn. Thank you!
In the case of @Eeyore123, with all due respect, their comment was rude. I clarified with this:
“My daughter is a strong candidate at any of the schools listed; she has a high GPA, top SAT scores, and solid extracurriculars. However, given how competitive admissions has become, I believe most students have a relatively low chance of gaining admittance to these schools, no matter how impressive their resumes.”
And @Eeyore123 replied to my clarification with this:
“Most development admits really don’t stand a chance without the money hook. Maybe that’s why their parents are buying their way into the school. Maybe you’re different. I don’t know.”
It’s common sense that a legacy admit has a much higher chance at their legacy school if the other colleges they are looking at are competitive.
Penn Legacy Admit: 33%
Swarthmore: 9%
Haverford: 18%
Amherst: 13%
In any case, I just wanted to make that point. I’ll certainly follow up with your suggestions on scheduling an overnight. Many thanks again.
@Midwestmomofboys That was so kind of you to look on my behalf. Thank you! I’ll definitely go over to the Penn board and take a look. Btw, I’m a Midwest mom as well.
Not quite the same situation (because no development hook), but my two older daughters gave up their legacy hooks at Brown (I went there) to apply ED to places which felt like much better fits for them. And I think they were both right. They were both excellent applicants per stats and extracurriculars, and I believe both had a very good shot at getting into Brown ED if they had wanted (who really knows, but they would have definitely been strong legacy candidates). Ironically (per your post), the second one is off to Haverford next year. We visited three times and it really stood out as a place that was a unique “fit” for her. Amherst would also have been on her list if she hadn’t gotten into Haverford ED. I think visiting is key, and perhaps more than once. My oldest liked Brown when we visited, but not as much as where she applied ED (Tufts). And my current senior knew before we were halfway done with the tour that Brown was too big for her. Visit, and then visit again, and do an overnight if your daughter might find that to be helpful (my Tufts student did an overnight before committing to ED).
It’s not quite the same, because we didn’t have the developmental pull and also legacy is a stronger hook at Penn than Brown, but although I’m a very practical person in my approach to college admissions, I think finding the right “fit” is key.
I posted this in the UPenn-specific thread, but here you go:
For some inside info, you should take a look at the Opinion section of the Daily Pennsylvanian newspaper:
http://www.thedp.com/section/opinion
This is a good time to look, as a lot of the graduating seniors have just written columns on their UPenn experience. Overall, the results are kind of a mixed bag - some people decry the pre-professionalism and the competitive, toxic nature of the undergraduate experience. Others talk fondly about their professors and friends.
This third party video also presents a lot of student interviews:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMIrhvEcdYo
Again, it’s a mixed bag. One complains that it’s not Harvard, and another raves about the experience. That seems to be the biggest takeaway from all the independent student info I can find - YMMV, and best that your DD goes in prepared and with eyes open.
I understand the pull of a “hook”. I know one young woman who has been very involved with her sorority at Penn which she described as mainly Jewish. She is very happy bUT did comment that she “will always be able to find her north face jacket in the pile of Canada goose jackets” at any party/venue. With that said, I don’t know her terrifically well so it’s a little hard for me to know how to filter her comments.
My personal advice is to focus on fit. The education at all these schools (including the “lessers” not mentioned ) is fantastic for a capable, engaged student so imho, one of the easiest things to address at college. The social vibe, both in and out of the classroom, is much harder to tweak. Haverford and Penn are quite different places, for example. Sort of like deciding if you want the pH apt on fifth Ave in nyc or the estate in Greenwich, ct…
In considering statistics, it might be helpful to create homogeneous comparisons to the best extent possible. Some smaller colleges, such as even a few in the NESCAC, admit ED1 applicants at a greater than 50% rate (e.g., the highly ranked Middlebury). Since your daughter, by indications, would be a fully qualified applicant for this level of school, this might compare favorably to her chances at Penn. With this in mind, she can think more confidently about fit, particularly if this might develop into an ED scenario.
@UrbanMum I would suggest you google about and ask Penn students about “Penn Face.”
My understanding is that legacy the advantage only applies to Mom and dad. Grandparents and uncles usually don’t count.
But the development hook coupled with legacy and strong stats puts her in a different (better) pile in the admissions office at Penn for sure.
For other schools. The development candidate hook has to come from the development office. You should make a discrete inquiry and have a conversation with the Penn development team that works with your family. They can pick up the phone and call Brown etc counterparts and give them the heads up.
Then it will help, especially how strong she is on her own volition. However only as a tie break advantage not a direct admit. That is reserved
for the naming level cases (new buildings, tenure track fellows, gyms etc). These candidates are the ones that move the needle. So many children of wealthy families apply, it has to be an impact donor to take one of the development office predetermined admits. Think of it like a coach with a few spots and using it for their best recruits. You are also competing with other wealthy families in the candidate pool as well.
I’m not sure your daughter is really a “development case.” Others can correct me if I’m wrong, but development case is a term (and euphemism), used in admissions, for those applicants whose profiles are at best iffy and at worst very shaky. However, because of family income the school is wiling to lower the bar considerably. This doesn’t sound like your daughter. I am sorry that someone jumped at you so immediately and with such force, but he was probably thinking of “development case” in these terms.
As for Jewish population in college (I am one of the tribe), most very selective east coast schools are well-represented. Muhelnberg, which from its name one can tell is Lutheran in origin, is 30% Jewish. According to hillel.org, Haverford is 25% Jewish.
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My understanding is that legacy the advantage only applies to Mom and dad. Grandparents and uncles usually don’t count.
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Penn is very legacy enthused and has an unusually broad definition of legacy. If your parent or grandparent attended Penn either as an undergrad or for grad school (including professional schools), you’re a legacy.