<p>Friend's D has narrowed her choices down to Penn and Vassar. She is interested in Art and Art History, as well as teaching. Penn has offered her $10,000 more a year.</p>
<p>It seems that there are not a lot of cross admits to these two schools. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.</p>
<p>Vassar has a smaller, more intimate environment. There's an artsy vibe on campus and people there love it. And I've heard that NY is supposed to be a good state to get a teaching license. It is in a small town though, so off-campus entertainment is mostly limited to weekend trips to the city. </p>
<p>Penn is an Ivy...that's a coolness factor. I've heard that the campus environment can be stressful, and that the neighborhood is close to some shady areas...but aside from that, most students there really like it. </p>
<p>The schools are fairly different. It depends on what she likes. If she's leaning towards Vassar, she could try asking them for more money (LACs will usually negotiate). What are her parents' thoughts?</p>
<p>Art and Art History, huh? Well, let me tell you this from firsthand knowledge: UPenn is extremely career-focused and business-oriented. It is not a university where the system or the professors will hold your hand, and as such, the intellectual growth and development among students there takes a backseat to grades and preparation for a career. So, I think a humanities major would survive much better at Vassar than at UPenn.</p>
<p>I don't know about Wetmere's "firsthand knowledge," but Penn happens to have one of the best Art History departments in the country. For example, in the last National Research Council (NRC) rankings of graduate programs (from 1995 and a bit dated, but scheduled to be updated later this year and still the most respected rankings of their kind), Penn's Art History department was ranked among the top 10 in the country. As the department's web site describes it:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Penn’s Department is an internationally renowned leader in the History of Art and Architecture, with a long, distinguished record of teaching, mentoring, and research. The faculty are committed to innovative instruction, and they work closely with students to develop skills in the interpretation of art works and in the understanding of visual culture.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Department</a> of the History of Art</p>
<p>Further, in addition to Art History, 6 other Penn arts and humanities departments were ranked in the top 10 nationally in the NRC rankings (English, French, Linguisitics, Music, Religion, and Spanish), and another 3 were ranked in the top 20 (Classics, Comparative Literature, and German). Moreover, 3 of Penn's Social Science departments were ranked in the top 10 nationally (Anthropology, Economics, and Psychology), and another 2 were ranked in the top 20 (History and Sociology).</p>
<p>NRC</a> Rankings in Each of 41 Areas</p>
<p>Also, with about 6400 undergraduates, Penn's College of Arts and Sciences is by far the largest academic component of the university, is literally and figuratively at the heart of the university, and offers extensive and comprehensive academic advising services for undergraduates:</p>
<p>[url=<a href="http://www.college.upenn.edu/advising/index.php%5DAdvising%5B/url">http://www.college.upenn.edu/advising/index.php]Advising[/url</a>]</p>
<p>Penn is exceptionally strong in Art History in particular and in humanities in general, and many Art History and humanities majors not only survive quite well there, they flourish.</p>
<p>My firsthand knowledge is a cousin who goes there. He tells me himself that the school is very Wharton-centric and that, despite what the rankings say, students agree that there is little room for the intellectual student. You can copy and paste quotes and statistics from third parties found by typing up a query on an internet search engine, but I have the word of an actual undergrad living the experience. It doesn't get much more firsthand than that, buddy.</p>
<p>Penn is definitely more career-oriented, having 3 of the 4 undergrad colleges being considered "professional." Nursing, engineering, and business are geared towards getting hired. Vassar probably would be better, but not for $40,000 more debt. Is the $10,000 difference going to be hard for the family? If not, go with Vassar, if it is going to be debt, I'd take Penn.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes it does, high-school-junior (which is what Westmere is) "buddy." I happen to be a Penn alum, visit the campus often, know current Penn students and recent alumni, and am very much in touch with what goes on there.</p>
<p>Furthermore, Penn has 10,000 undergraduates, of which only about 1850 are in Wharton. Your cousin's personal subjective opinion notwithstanding, the sheer volume of liberal arts students and the numerous liberal arts departments ranked by experts among the best in the country, tend to undercut the idea that Penn is "very Wharton-centric."</p>
<p>You should spend more time trying to learn the real facts about schools, instead of trying to authoritatively opine about them from your high school junior's vantage point.</p>
<p>Phorid, my information is also "second-hand": My D will enter college in 2010 and is also planning on studying Art History and Art. Her AP European History teacher is a Vassar grad and suggested my daughter look at Vassar's program. The past president of Vassar (1986-2006) was an Art Historian (PhD Art History, Harvard) and did a lot to build up the program. </p>
<p>UPenn is/was a consideration, but I would like to know if the quotes cited above for the grad program also apply to the undergrad program. They may, but it is not a given.</p>
<p>
Again, be careful about drawing conclusions and generalizing about which school would be "better" based on what you've learned as a high school student.</p>
<p>Obviously, Penn has a strong preprofessional component. But that doesn't rule out it's also having a strong--and even larger--liberal arts component. The College of Arts and Sciences is more than 1 1/2 times larger than all 3 of the other undergraduate schools COMBINED. And, as I previously pointed out, many of Penn's liberal arts departments are ranked among the best in the country. Don't be swayed by simplisitc generalizations or stereotypes about one school or another. The liberal arts are very strong at Penn; in fact, among the strongest in the country. The additional presence of strong professional schools only serves to enhance the diversity, breadth, and depth of the undergraduate experience at Penn, NOT detract from it.</p>
<p>Phorid: I posted a question a few months ago asking about good Art History undergrad programs. This is one of the responses.</p>
<p>"That's a tough one - I'm currently exploring graduate Archaeology (Classical/Med.) programs so I run into quite a few Art History departments and I haven't seen any formal undergrad. ratings.</p>
<p>That said, I'll put in a plug for my undergrad school: Penn. Although I'm in Classics, we share a number of courses with Art History and the faculty, in my experience (Kuttner, Pittman and Rose if you want to loook 'em up), has been uniformly excellent. Their website is here:</p>
<p>Department</a> of the History of Art : Information for Undergraduates</p>
<p>Another thing to think about - while slides are a fact of life for Art History majors, if I were in your place, I would be looking for a school that either has a solid museum collection or has a good working relationship with nearby public museums. (Not surprisingly Penn has both.) Nothing can replace actually being able to handle the material you're studying." </p>
<p>Sounds like something from someone who actually has some experience with UPENN's AH department.</p>
<p>dtex50, in general, the same faculty teaches both grad students and undergrads. The distinction often drawn between the quality of graduate and undergrad programs is somewhat of a fallacy, especially at a school like Penn. Undergrads are not usually taught by grad students, except as teaching assistants in small supplemental sessions for larger introductory lecture classes in which the lecture itself is taught by a professor. In the higher level classes that any major would take, however, the classes and seminars are all taught by professors. Indeed, under Penn's "One University" policy, undergrads are allowed and encouraged to take graduate level courses.</p>
<p>I would encourage you to have your daughter explore Penn's Art History department web site, and to have her contact the Art History department directly with any questions she may have about the program.</p>
<p>Speaking of Penn's "One University" policy, it adds a unique dimension to undergraduate education not found at liberal arts colleges or even other universities. Under that policy, Penn strongly encourages all undergrads to take classes in more than one of the undergraduate schools (College of Arts and Sciences, Wharton School, School of Engineering and Applied Science, Nursing School), AND in most of Penn's highly esteemed graduate and professional schools (Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, Law School, School of Design, Annenberg School for Communication, School of Social Policy and Practice, Graduate School of Education, etc.), without the need for any special dispensation. This gives undergraduates an extraordinary opportunity to pursue a program of incredible diversity, breadth, and depth that goes far beyond the traditional liberal arts curriculum, and is really unparalleled.</p>
<p>Here's another quote from another actual Penn student: me.</p>
<p>Are there preprofessional students and preprofessional schools at Penn? Yes, of course. There are also many more NOT-preprofessoinal liberal arts students in the (much larger) liberal arts school.</p>
<p>I took an ARTH course ("architect and history") and the professor (Lothar Haselberger) was marvelous and loved his students. He dragged us all over Philadelphia to look at our own rich architectural heritage.</p>
<p>Penn has phenomenal departments of art history and fine arts, and equally phenomenal students in both. I am friends with some and they have been very satisfied with their educations.</p>
<p>As always, your mileage may vary...but the opinion of actual Penn students should certainly have more weight than someone who heard it from someone...</p>
<p>I turned down Penn for Vassar, and have never regretted it. Mind you, it was 35 yrs ago (and Vassar had just recently gone coed), but Vassar was a better place for the major I chose, it had no required courses (other than within the major) and it had no language requirement (I was sick of languages). I also decided I didn't want to be in a city, on an urban campus. Now, none of this seems to be particularly relevant in your situation, but Vassar's Art History Department is world renowned. Can't speak to Penn's (thought Isn't Moore College of Art in Philly?- is it affiliated with Penn??). What kind of teaching does your friend's d want to do? Elementary, middle HS, College?? Vassar's training is strong. Has your friend asked Vassar to review their FA award?</p>
<p>Westmere- My "firsthand" knowledge is a little stronger than yours. Penn does give an initial impression of being very pre-professional, and it certainly does have that aspect if one wants it. My son has found quite a bit of intellectualism and very interesting liberal arts classes. While Wharton gets a lot of the attention, as has been pointed out, most of the students are NOT in Wharton and enjoy excellent classes with great faculty.</p>
<p>I previously missed that phorid's friend's daughter is also interested in teaching. In addition to Penn's eminent Art History department, Penn offers--again as part of its "One University" policy--a 7-course undergraduate minor in Urban Education, which is offered through the Graduate School of Education. So, for example, an undergrad could major in Art History while also pursuing the minor in Urban Education through the Graduate School of Education, with a concentration in Elementary Education, Secondary Education, or Urban Education Policy, Research, and Practice:</p>
<p>Urban</a> Studies Program</p>
<p>I just wanted to say thanks for all of the very helpful, informative and quick replies. The clock to May 1st is ticking and all of the comments (past and future) are much appreciated. </p>
<p>Many high school seniors have to make some tough decisions in the next few days (including my S, but that is another post). Thanks again for helping Friend's D make a more informed decision.</p>
<p>Huh? Penn is a better financial package and you are still considering Vassar????!!!!???? Read the rejecting Harvard thread. This is a no brainer. Vassar while a nice LAC is nowhere near PENN.</p>
<p>^^^ UCLA-
On what are you basig your comments? "Prestige" only? Sounds to me like the OP is looking aat many other, very important variables in this decision.</p>
<p>What if Art History is taken out of the picture? Then how do the two compare?</p>
<p>Dtex, in terms of Art History, here are the Gourman rankings for undergraduate programs</p>
<p>Gourman Ranking for art history:</p>
<p>NYU
Harvard
Princeton
Yale
Columbia
UC Berkeley
Stanford
Bryn Mawr
U Michigan AA
Johns Hopkins
U Penn
UCLA
U Chicago
Brown
UNC Chapel Hill
Cornell</p>
<p>It seems like Penn has a pretty strong undergraduate program according to these rankings. </p>
<p>I believe that Vassar also has a strong art program, so I think that the decision should probably come down to other factors. Penn is a school of almost 10,000 undergraduates located in a large city with lots to do. It has a beautiful campus, but some of the areas several blocks away are not as nice. It offers many different academic choices and options and, while extremely well-known for business, it also offers strong programs in numerous liberal arts areas. The male/female ratio is fairly even and it is fairly diverse (59% white). </p>
<p>Vassar is a much smaller school (about 2400 undergraduates), with a beautiful campus. However, it is located near a rather moribund city with little to do. Vassar is known for its liberal atmosphere and it has some wonderful academic departments. The male female ratio is 40/60 and it is less diverse than Penn (about 75% white). </p>
<p>If money is an issue, then clearly Penn is the better choice. If not, then I think that because the two schools are quite different, your friend's D should consider what type of atmosphere would suit her better.</p>