I agree that OOS Berks is not a good option. That said, your daughter can call and ask for reconsideration to the undecided major and work towards engineering from there. Penn State is different in that there are very very few direct admit majors. No one is in their major at Penn State until after they complete certain classes with a certain GPA. Therefore, anyone in undecided can take those exact same classes to get into the major. Other schools have you get a certain GPA to stay in the major, Penn State just has you get that to get into the major.
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We are in Chicago - easier to fly to Denver than driving to Berks. Or UT for that matter. She applied to UI in Urbana Champagne but she doesnāt want to go there - too many kids from same high school. Wants a change of scenery. Iowa would be easiest to get to (5hrs), everything else is far
Thanks! I donāt understand how PennState maintains its high undergraduate engineering rankings if half the kids donāt even see anything specific to their intended majors for two years. Just wondering how they are able to do any undergrad research etc this way.
Boulder is unique in terms of their space (not aero) orientation. One of the largest NASA grants goes to Boulder. Iām concerned that if my daughter just studies irrelevant engineering disciplines for two years she would lose interest. Iām an engineer myself - important to maintain perspective as you get through difficult subjects that are not entirely related to your field. Engineering is huge and you need very good guidance and specialized programs not to lose focus
We did but so far with no progress. We even argued that she already takes Aerospace engineering at her high school - they build gliders and rockets and test them, and taking a two year break would set her back.
How quickly can they reverse their decision (from 2+2 to UT) if they intend to do it?
The entry to major requirements for Aerospace Engineering are:
- 29-55 graded Penn State credits (excludes transfer and AP credits)
- completed with a grade of C or better: CHEM 110, EDSGN 100, Math 140 (Calc), Math 141 (Calc II), PHYS 211
- earned a minimum cumulative grade-point average (GPA) of 3.10
The first 4 semesters are heavy on math, engineering mech classes and other classes that are the basic building blocks. Penn State engineering is very highly ranked so they must be doing something right!
They do make decisions at this point on a rolling basis. That being said, do not underestimate the rigor of a Penn State UP engineering degree. There are always stories of kids who were at the top of their classes in HS, flaming out in college. PSU is a difficult environment. Tons of distractions, huge classes, very difficult classesā¦ No one holds your hand here and some kids just get lost. Itās very easy to do. There is a method to Penn Stateās madness.
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Yes, that was another question I had - UP is 90,000 vs. Boulder being only 30,000 people campus wise. Which one is better? I did my undergrad at a smaller university so not sure how does one deal with something of that size at the age of 18. I understand when you do a grad degree it doesnāt matter because you are years older - is that the reason they do 2+2 and maybe we shouldnāt fight it? I actually thought from that POV starting at 3,000 people Berks may be a bit less overwhelmingā¦ but concerning because there is no connection to the department or anything related to Aerospace.
I know statistics shows that as many as 50% start at 2+2, but I canāt find graduation rates for commonwealth campuses in regards to 4 year degrees that finish at UP (vs. 4 year degree that start and finish at Berks).
Thanks for all replies!
One last question related to 2+2ā¦ Is the reason she didnāt get into UP because she didnāt qualify for UP grades-wise. Our HS statistics shows that literally no one gets into UP from Illinois - even kids with 4.6W, so does it mean UP is more IS and international kids, or they have already decided that she wonāt make into Aerospace after two years and there is no point trying?
CU Boulder also does this - everyone doesā¦ They have this placeholder major called Exploratory studies that admits kids into Boulder without admitting them into actual major and the graduation rates are poorer for those kids (kids that start on the non-major track). There is also pre-business and pre-engineering. But she got directly into her major (highest ranking engineering major at Boulder) and we think it is meaningful somehow.
The 90,000 you are quoting isnāt accurate. PSU has roughly 90,000 students system-wide, including all branches.
I am not sure of the exact number at UP, but itās much less. Last year, there were about 46,000 undergrads at UP and 15,000 grad students system-wide. Even if all grad students are at UP, thatās āonlyā 61,000 students.
Itās still a big number, but substantially less than 90,000.
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The reason she did not get into UP is because Admissions thought there were stronger candidates. It is hard to say 4.6W from HS #1 = 4.6W from HS #2 when Admissions may actually have a lot of data on those two different HS.
As for āliterally no one gets into UP from Illinoisā => that is incorrect. I know many kids from Illinois at UP. Some even into the uber-competitive nursing program at UP. Your HS statistics may be showing that if no one from your HS gets into Penn State that either your HS isnāt viewed as competitive or only the lower stat kids are applying. Or if the data is self-reported (as many Naviance profiles are), it is only as good as the student reporting it.
CU Boulder and āexploratory studiesā is not comparable to pre-major at Penn State. There are only a few majors that are direct entry as freshman (nursing, golf management program, musical theater). Everything else, you are considered pre-major. If you are admitted to the Engineering school as pre-major, you still have to complete the ETM (entrance to major requirements) to be āinā your major. You still have to complete those same requirements if you are in DUS (undecided). And both Engineering PMAJ (pre-major) and DUS (undecided) have equal access to the same classes. Scroll up and I wrote a long post about it.
Have you reached out to admissions to request re-consideration for DUS at UP? Would she consider summer start? Summer start is a great thing. i know many kids (my own among them) that did not āhaveā to attend summer, but āchoseā to attend summer. Gets a few credits under their belt, adjustment to campus, roommates, dormsā¦
And the 90,000 number is overinflated. The flip side of starting at Berks vs. UP is that classes are smaller and may be easier. Many of the kids who start at UP are overwhelmed and donāt make the GPA requirements because they are having too much fun, or arenāt disciplined enough to manage college right away. They actually would have been better served by starting at an Altoona, or a Berks, or somewhere else. Just presenting the other side of the coin.
good luck to your daughter. She has some great options and sounds like she prefers those over Penn State anyway. In that case, I wouldnāt lose sleep over it and move on.
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Yes, I seem to have looked up the total for PennState. Sorry for that. I guess around 60,000.
So
High school we are from is actually #20 in Illinois out of 647 public HSs (usnews.com). We have an Aerospace engineering class equipped with a wind tunnel in the basement of the school, that includes building gliders and modeling rocket designs and it is really one of the better HSs in the country. I actually think she got in at all because of what school she is from and what classes sheās already taken and not the other way around.
Our school publishes results every year for where the final graduation record was sent for each class and the major where information is availableā¦ I can easily agree that my daughter may not have qualified based on her grades all three kids who went to Penn last year all went to 2+2ā¦ CU Boulder - even less. Only one, CS. Hence the question on PennStateā¦ Whether OOS is less likely to get UP. But I think you are saying it isnāt.
Summer is a good option. How do we find out more about it? Would that mean she gets a chance at UP or still summer at Berks? Is there any statistics on Berks+UP graduation rates at the intended major? CU Boulder graduation rates are actually pretty low - PennState is much higher - but if you look it up specifically for Aerospace they are near 100%. I was wondering if stats like that are possible to find.
We are at UP this weekend and just got a tour from a Lion Ambassador for my accepted son. It was an awesome tour! We did a regular tour by the university with my SS two years ago and this Lion Ambassador tour was much better. It is free, private, and you can schedule it. They recommended contacting them 7 days before you visit. They ask you what you want to see and tailor the tour to you. They also try to match your tour guide with youā¦major/interest/etc. I highly recommend it.
https://www.lionambassadors.com/private-tours
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Graduation rates (unspecified what major or degree): Altoona 65%, Berks 55%, Harrisburg 63%ā¦. UP is 87%.
Thatās what is bothering me. That actual 2+2 graduation rate for Berks+UP could be closer to 70%? May not be true at all as Berks doesnāt actually āgraduateā these kids but I canāt find any other statistics. First-year student retention is 79%, so already lower than UP grad rate of 87%, but thatās all there is in terms of data.
Btw, it is actually sadly only 38% at Berks for 4 years. Goes up to 55% after five.
remember there are a few things impacting those lower graduation rates from Berks.
- some of those kids are not as strong academically. already at risk for dropping out/finding alternative paths.
- some of those kids are struggling financially. they may have chosen a different campus so they can live at home and save money. They may discover that UP is not feasible. (unfortunately, Penn State is not cheap).
- not all students are traditional learners, so not as concerned about a 4-yr. degree, which would impact graduation rates.
Did she look at Altoona? That is a larger campus and close to UP. More traditional students than some other campuses. (I donāt know anything about Berks - not a knock on Berks).
When you are reviewed for admission, it goes like this:
- can we admit you based on preferred major at fall at UP?
- if no, did you select that you would attend summer? can we admit you there?
- if not selected summer or stats donāt qualify, what alternative campus do you have?
If she indicated she would attend summer, it would be 6 credits at UP then fall at UP. Again, many kids choose to do this, some have to do it to get in at UP.
Not surprising that graduation rates for aerospace at CU are higher - they are admitting candidates with more rigorous academic qualifications, so more likely to graduate.
OOS vs. IS? Penn State doesnāt have the āin-stateā requirement like UNC or UT. They also donāt have the preference financially for OOS like other public universities (higher tuition). I know many kids from OOS that get in. I canāt answer those questions, I would encourage you to speak to your regional Admissions counselor why so few from your HS attend. Sounds like there is a lot of self-selection though.
good luck to her.
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Yep - agreeā¦ CU Boulder and Iowa have websites where you can make selections specific to your kid - intended major, gender, race, financial aid etcā¦ and look at retention and graduation rates relevant to your family. For a Caucasian Aerospace girl both schools returned 90+% (96 for Boulder) when their āaverageā grad rate is 68%. Easy to see exactly what you are talking about. Understandably soā¦
Couldnāt find anything for ASU and Penn and was wondering if you knew - hence my messages here. And I think it is critical to understand this before sending a $50k check and your kid together with it to a far away schoolā¦.
Hi! New to this thread - DD was accepted EA to Penn State (University Park - Smeal Business) and we WERE very excited, until we got her āfinancial aid packageā which consisted of a Stafford Loan. Nothing else. No merit, no grants, nothing. Is this usual for Penn State? We are pretty āneedyā by FAFSA standards, and her academic/EC credentials are excellent - she has been offered everything from in-state tuition + additional merit money from other OOS state schools to significant merit/grant aid from private schools.
Everyone I talk to raves about Penn State, but I simply donāt see how it could be possible - or worth it - given the complete lack of financial support and incentive. Any thoughts from experienced folks? Many thanks!
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Yes, this is very typical for Penn State UP. Most admitted students receive no merit aid regardless of stats, and even the neediest of students usually receive very little if any institutional need-based aid; it does award Pell grants and PHEAA (PA state) grants. It is for this reason that I didnāt allow my instate D17 to apply to Penn State, knowing that as a $0 EFC family there would be no way we could afford it.
Wow. Thank you for this information. This makes me really sad, because I think that Penn State could be a great fit for my daughter. They seem so interested in her too - weāve gotten tons of post-acceptance emails from them, she was asked to apply for the Sapphire program in Business, and she is waiting to hear about the Schreyer Honors College, who have been sending regular emails as well. But thereās no earthly way we could afford what they are asking with no assistance, and I just donāt see how any school is worth graduating $240,000 in debt!! Sighā¦ 
I think if she is accepted to Schreyer she will receive a $5,000/year award.
Do you know this or assume it? 15% of the students get a Pell Grant so would have an EFC below 5800. At a EFC of 0 you would get a 6700 Pell grant and 4700 PHEAA grant plus a Staford Loan leaving a $15,000 or so gap. There are several other need based grants and they meet full need of 30% of need applicants. I understand that the $15,000 gap would be hard to cover but then how do other Pell grant students afford it if they are not one of the 30% that get full need met? If you are out of state that is a different story. Need based students should not apply. I would think a Pell grant student would get aid to fill the gap or there would not be any enrolled. 25% of student come from families with income under $50,000 they arent filling a big gap.
Some families are willing and able to take out Parent Plus or private loans to cover the remaining cost. I wasnāt willing to take out parent loans. Others may have grandparents willing to chip in, or may have assets not assessed if they qualify for the Simplified Means Test. Sometimes a large Work Study amount is part of the package. I did let my daughter apply to her ādream schoolā, Temple, with the stipulation that the net cost had to be below a certain amount. In addition to Pell and PHEAA grants and the Direct Loan, she was offered $7500 in Work Study, far more than she could have earned during the school year. There was still a large gap. She had to turn down Temple. Pennsylvania state-related and even the true state schools (PASSHE) are out of reach financially for many instate students whose families are unwilling or unable to take out parent loans.
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