Penn v. Brown

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
1

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>I'm looking to potentially leave my current school to go to one of these two universities. I have <48 hours to make a decision, so any help would be appreciated.</p>

<p>Academically, I'm going to probably be majoring in Economics. I really loved Philadelphia when I visited, and I love how diverse the school is. However, I've heard Penn is very competitive (feel free to dispel that rumor though!), and I'll be in the College at Penn, so I'm likewise concerned that I'm going to miss out on job opportunities compared to students at Wharton.</p>

<p>Socially, I'm choosing my leave my current school due to a lack of intellectualism and the large presence Greek life has on campus. Ultimately, I'm looking for a diverse university that is not so exclusive and homogeneous in terms of the types of students and social offerings.</p>

<p>I'm getting down to the wire, so any help would be appreciated!</p>

2

<p>Honestly? You can’t go wrong either way. Both schools are large enough to offer social and intellectual diversity, so I’m sure you’ll find your niche at either school. However, Penn’s larger undergraduate student body and the additional presence of Wharton, SEAS, and Nursing do add dimensions–in terms of types of students and academic offerings available to undergrads–that Brown doesn’t have. Also, keep in mind that Penn’s One University policy strongly encourages undergrads to take courses in Penn schools other than their own, including graduate and professional schools such as the Law School, Annenberg School for Communication, School of Design, Graduate School of Education, School of Social Policy and Practice, etc. Add this also adds a dimension of diversity not available at Brown.</p>

<p>In terms of job opportunities for Econ majors at Penn given the presence of Wharton, I have never heard or seen a College Econ major complain about having fewer opportunities because of the presence of Wharton. If anything, they cite the increased opportunities available to them, given that (1) they can take Wharton courses (and identify them as such on their resumes :)); and (2) all undergraduate recruiting at Penn is coordinated through the same Career Services office, and the increased scope of on-campus recruiting due to the presence of Wharton, is also largely available to students in the College. So in general, Wharton’s presence is additive to, and not detractive from, a College Econ major’s opportunities, in terms of available curriculum, job opportunities, and social life.</p>

<p>Given (1) that the number of undergrads in Penn’s College is roughly the same as the total number of undergrads at Brown; (2) that Penn has more top-10 and top-20 liberal arts departments than Brown; (3) the additional academic opportunities available to a student in Penn’s College due to the presence of the other undergrad and grad schools and Penn’s One University policy; (4) the larger number and more diverse scope of extracurricular and cultural organizations on Penn’s campus due to its larger student body and higher percentage of international students; and (5) the presence of Philadelphia and the history, culture, and nightlife it has to offer; [are you still with me? ;)], I think of Penn as offering basically what Brown does (leaving aside differences between Penn’s distributional requirements and Brown’s open curriculum), plus much more.</p>

<p>And in terms of the relative competitiveness of Brown versus Penn’s College, remember that students in both schools are among the highest academic achievers in the country (or else they wouldn’t have been admitted), and are generally headed to the same jobs, graduate and professional schools, and careers. So for the most part, you’ll find the same general level of competitiveness at virtually any top school, and anyone who tells you otherwise is kind of missing the big picture. :)</p>

<p>So, long-winded explanation aside :rolleyes:, I think that your desire “for a diverse university that is not so exclusive and homogeneous in terms of the types of students and social offerings,” would be well satisfied at Penn. And you loved Philly! But again, you really can’t go wrong at either school–they’re both phenomenal, and you have a wonderful choice!</p>

3

<p>Thanks for your super helpful reply! It definitely helped dispel some of my concerns about Wharton vs the College as well as the cutthroat rumors I had been hearing. I really appreciate the time you put into your answer. :)</p>

4

<p>Definitely Brown. Less competitive, more grade inflation (3.6+ average GPA - this alone justifies Brown over Penn imo), Business Economics major (seems like it would be more relevant to your interests - Penn’s econ major is very theoretical), you’ll be the top target at your school. </p>

<p>I’m a dual-degree student and I personally don’t think College students benefit from the presence of Wharton. Makes it more competitive, difficult, and, well, you can take business classes at any of Penn’s peer schools anyways…</p>

5

<p>

This is incorrect on so many levels. :rolleyes: First, Penn’s Econ major is no more “theoretical” than Brown’s and, in fact, a Penn Econ major can easily supplement his/her courses with Wharton Finance, etc. courses if he/she wants a more practical course schedule. Can’t do that at Brown, and you CERTAINLY can’t take business courses of the caliber of Wharton’s “at any of Penn’s peer schools,” most of which don’t even have undergraduate business courses of any kind. That’s utter nonsense. PLUS, Penn actually DOES have a separate Economics major–the “Mathematical Economics” major–for students wanting a more theoretical Economics major, and who intend to go on to an Economics graduate program:</p>

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<p>[Mathematical</a> Economics Major | Penn Economics](<a href=“http://economics.sas.upenn.edu/undergraduate-program/mathematical-economics-major]Mathematical”>http://economics.sas.upenn.edu/undergraduate-program/mathematical-economics-major)</p>

<p>And in terms of grade inflation at Brown vs. Penn: do you have any verifiable data to back up your claim that there’s currently more of it at Brown, and specifically vis-a-vis students in Penn’s College in comparable majors taking comparable courses? I doubt it, since it doesn’t exist. :)</p>

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<p>Picking a school based on grade inflation is just plain stupid. You should focus on what the school has to offer, not on grades which in the end are not as important as everyone originally thinks. Regardless, Brown is known to have very lax grading policies, so I am sure people take that into account when looking at transcripts from Brown.
I would pick the school you feel is a better fit. Also consider that while Brown is technically a research university, it is actually more like a liberal arts college in practice. For me, I would much rather be at a school that functions like a true research university, but that is just my choice. I do really enjoy being in Philly since it has a lot going on without being overwhelming.
I know plenty of Econ majors in the college and while some pay attention to what goes on in Wharton, others are honestly not interested. If you do we’ll in Econ you will have great job opportunities.</p>

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<p>This is Brown’s Business Economics major ([Commerce</a>, Organizations, and Entrepreneurship](<a href=“Welcome | Business, Entrepreneurship and Organizations”>Welcome | Business, Entrepreneurship and Organizations)), which is far more practical than Penn’s theoretical Economics major. Penn has no applied/business economics major for College students. If one wants to take business classes, they have to take it through incredibly competitive, GPA-depressing Wharton classes, which don’t satisfy any college requirements btw. </p>

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<p>[University</a> of Pennsylvania](<a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com/penn.html]University”>http://www.gradeinflation.com/penn.html) [Average Penn CAS GPA: 3.44]
[Brown</a> University](<a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com/Brown.html]Brown”>Brown University) [Average Brown GPA: 3.61]</p>

<p>Penn CAS is not what recruiters come for. It’s Wharton. Make no mistake about it. In case OP is interested in IBD, to my best knowledge GS, CS, and JPM didn’t take anyone from CAS this year (the other banks each took 1-3) while there are multiple Brown students (5+) in each of those banks’ 2013 analyst classes.</p>

<p>Penn CAS is great but if you’re looking to go into business, it makes no sense to go there over a school like Brown. OP, this is a no-brainer. Also, I actually go to Penn, 45P doesn’t…</p>

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<p>Your wrong that Goldman Sachs didn’t take anyone CAS, I know a girl who majored in political science who is starting next fall in San Francisco. And I also know a junior who turned down an offer for an internship who majors in biophysics.
Honestly, this is something that really bothers me about Penn (but probably happens at other top schools as well). There are some people who only care about status and grades and project that notion onto everyone else. News flash, not every economics major wants to work for Goldman Sachs. Working for an investment bank is very grueling, and besides money and prestige, there are few other rewards.
Iamanapp, just because this is what you intend to do with your life doesn’t mean that you need to put down the whole college of arts and sciences which hosts some tremendously successful professors who are leaders in their respective fields. Some people actually do want to study Economics as an academic discipline, not just as the watered down version they give you in Bpub. You also mention the Wharton curve as being harsh and unfair. Honestly, 30% A’s is pretty standard in science courses. I know several science majors who have taken finance classes, and they actually outperform the Wharton students because they have much stronger math skills. I know plenty of people in math and physics who get finance jobs without a problem because of their strong math skills, which are not something you automatically learn in Wharton if you just take the required courses.</p>

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<p>Really? I count only 3-4 courses in Brown’s Business Economics major that have no counterpart in Penn’s Econ Department: Accounting, Corporate Finance, Investments, and Investments II. In other words, WHARTON COURSES. The question is, would you rather take those types of courses from an Econ professor or instructor at Brown? Or from Wharton’s top-ranked Accounting and Finance departments (and be able to list them on your resume as Wharton courses)?</p>

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WRONG. Students in the College can use up to 4 non-College (e.g., Wharton) courses to satisfy the requirements for their degree:</p>

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</p>

<p>[Credits</a> Needed for Graduation by Major | University of Pennsylvania - College of Arts and Sciences](<a href=“http://www.college.upenn.edu/policies-procedures/policies-graduation/credits-needed-major]Credits”>http://www.college.upenn.edu/policies-procedures/policies-graduation/credits-needed-major)</p>

<p>And, if you’re afraid of the effect a Wharton course will have on your GPA, you can simply take it pass/fail (that’s not just a Brown thing ;)).</p>

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Once again, the hard data contradicts you. I don’t know about 2013, since the data hasn’t been published anywhere yet, but for the Class of 2012, students in Penn’s College did quite well in IB placement. Based on a quick review of the College’s Career Plans Survey Report for the Class of 2012, and subtracting out the Wharton dual-degree students by listed majors, I count the following number of College students hired for analyst positions at the following firms (and there may have been more–these are just those who responded to the survey):</p>

<p>BlackRock–5
Citigroup–5
Credit Suisse–4
Goldman Sachs–9
JPMorgan Chase–9
Morgan Stanley–7</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/undergrad/reports/CAScp2012Report.pdf[/url]”>http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/undergrad/reports/CAScp2012Report.pdf&lt;/a&gt; (see pages 45-47).</p>

<p>And that doesn’t include other financial firms, or any consulting firms (Bain, BCG, etc.).</p>

<p>And if that doesn’t satisfy you, take a look at the previous five years of Career Plans Survey Reports for the College:</p>

<p>[Career</a> Services, University of Pennsylvania](<a href=“http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/undergrad/reports.html]Career”>http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/undergrad/reports.html)</p>

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But I am an alum who follows Penn quite closely, and who knows lots of current and former Penn students. And most importantly, I base what I post here on documented facts and data, and not on unsubstantiated gut feelings. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>Reasons to go with Brown: the curriculum, the student body, the location, the extracurricular options, the diversity, the intellectualism that is not overwhelming or snotty.</p>

<p>Reasons to go with Penn: the economics department, the student body, the location, the large social scene, the diversity, the intellectualism. </p>

<p>Philly and Providence are very different cities in terms of vibes. Both schools have excellent social scenes - Penn is more balanced politically, while Brown is known for having more liberal leaning students. Greek life is at both, but neither school has an overwhelming scene and there are other options available. </p>

<p>Good luck with your decision! Let us know!</p>

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<p>45 percenter stated many good stats which should dispel any notions, most unfounded, that brown is superior to penn cas. With that being said, those are just hard facts. Penn is a great school which will most likely place u into a better career than if u graduated from brown, but your college years may be more enjoyable at brown. Although Penn is known for its ‘social ivy’ moniker, I find it much more competitive than a school like brown. There are kids in my classes who transferred from brown and they find the classes much tougher at penn. Even transfers from ‘no fun’ schools like uchicago complain how they have to study so much more and harder at penn than their previous college. </p>

<p>I was, like you probably are, very nervous about transferring to penn cause i thought my gpa would take a hit. I heard stories that it was so tough. The truth is it is very tough, but my gpa is actually stronger at penn than my previous college. I did study 12 hrs every day but nonetheless it isn’t impossible to do well. You just will most likely be able to have fun and coast by with a good gpa at brown. At penn, if you really want to succeed, you will but it will be more challenging than brown. </p>

<p>I personally would choose penn because I do better in very challenging environments. If you like a competitive yet communal intellectualism with a large portion of professionalism, then choose penn. If you want more intellectualism, less professionalism, and more chill campus then choose brown.</p>

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<p>Come to Brown! The social scene is much better, and the student body is great! We are friendly & intellectual! :slight_smile: </p>

<p>[The</a> Dissidents | 34th Street Magazine](<a href=“http://34st.com/2012/11/the-dissidents/]The”>http://34st.com/2012/11/the-dissidents/)</p>

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<p>Also, I know several people who have transferred out of Penn and have gone to Brown but not vice versa.</p>

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<p>^ For the record, Penn’s Freshman Retention Rate is the same as Brown’s (and many of the other top schools), meaning that the same proportion of students transfer out of both schools:</p>

<p>[Freshman</a> Retention Rate | Rankings | Top National Universities | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/freshmen-least-most-likely-return]Freshman”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/freshmen-least-most-likely-return)</p>

<p>Also, don’t you think that the 34th Street Magazine article gives a bit of a skewed perspective? I mean, these are the views of 5 people who transferred out of Penn. :rolleyes: Wonder what we’d hear from some of the 2% of Brown freshmen who transfer out of Brown every year?</p>

<p>Be careful about relying too much on anecdotal information like this, especially when making sweeping judgments about highly complex institutions, each comprised of thousands of diverse individuals with a wide variety of backgrounds and interests.</p>

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<p>Ignore 45P. He pretty much lives on the Penn board and replies to everything, therefore unless he has no life at all, it’s obvious he works at Penn admissions. Also, his stats about CAS’s placement are misleading. They are combined with Wharton’s numbers. </p>

<p>Also, I know plenty of transfers. And I’ve never met any from schools like Brown. </p>

<p>This is a no-brainer. Go to Brown.</p>

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<p>

WRONG. Try reading my post, not to mention the last 6 years of Career Plans Survey Reports for the College, to which I linked. My numbers EXCLUDE Wharton’s numbers. Firstly, Wharton Undergrad has its own, separate, Career Plans Survey Reports (also available on the page to which I linked). Secondly, as the Career Plans Survey Reports for the College clearly identify the majors of those responding, it’s easy to separate out the dual-degree students by their Wharton concentrations (Finance, Health Care Management, etc.) to cull the single-degree College students, which is what I did for the Class of 2012.</p>

<p>Not to meniton that your credibility has also been impeached by Poeme’s posts, who personally knows recent graduates of the College who’ve been hired by investment banks, including Goldman Sachs.</p>

<p>And no, for the umpteenth time, I DO NOT work for the Admissions Office or any part of Penn, as I’ve told you many times in the past in response to your long history (since you first joined CC) of trollish posts, going back to when you claimed to be a Penn freshman while simultaneously claiming elsewhere on CC to be a freshman at Columbia. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>What did you decide?? Brown, Penn, or your current uni?</p>

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<p>Derp…this isn’t exactly a life-changing decision. Either school would be a good choice, and both schools have intellectual students. I do have three friends that transferred from Penn (two from Wharton, and one of the Wharton kids starting at Brown, transferring to Wharton, and then transferring back to Brown). However, I also know people that transferred from Brown to Penn, so comparable retention rates don’t necessarily demonstrate which school has happier students. In fact, it almost does a disservice to the students at either school that really struggle and have a hard time enjoying the experience when there are trolls insisting that everyone on the campus is happy (and of course the retention rate demonstrates that!). Leaving a school to (1) go elsewhere, or (2) drop out is easier said than done, especially at a high-caliber school where expectations (and pressure) are high.</p>

<p>Regardless, you’ve probably made your decision by now, but I thought I’d give that opinion. I go to Brown, and I wouldn’t assert that the Business program is the go-to major for a finance job. The Economics department can be as theoretical as you want it to be, and the Mathematical/Applied Math-Econ programs would probably be a great idea for pursuing a deeper study of Economics. As someone who went through OCR, recruiting was internally stressful as I struggled to get my s*** together for interviews/info sessions, but it never felt competitive among the student body. Not that many people go into finance, but we do have a lot of alumni on Wall Street. Consequently, those who want to get into finance from Brown (who have the drive to network, get good grades, and take advantage of OCR) usually end up okay. I have no experience at Penn other than what I hear from my friends, and I’m almost certain that it is the case there as well. I’ve taken advantage of the (few) finance courses that Brown has, and haven’t lost out on career opportunities to students at comparable universities (which include Penn/Wharton) because I lacked finance coursework. Then again, I demonstrated interest in finance through outside work/research experience (and have been fortunate enough to receive pre-internship training at the jobs I have had), so maybe that’s why it doesn’t kill your chances to get a job if you’re a Brown student.</p>

<p>For anyone reading this in the future, feel free to PM me if you have more questions.</p>

19

<p>

If you were directing those comments to my previous post–which I suspect you were because of the reference to comparable retention rates–then I think you misunderstood my point. I was NOT suggesting, and have never suggested, that everyone at any school–Penn, Brown, or otherwise–is happy, and that high retention rates demonstrate that. Instead, I was responding to the implication by two posters that students regularly transfer out of Penn, but not out of Brown, and that students at Brown are therefore generally happier with their school. THOSE, by the way, would be the trollish comments, and not mine. I merely cited actual freshman retention data–also used by prominent rankings such as US News as a rough measure of student satisfaction/dissatisfaction–to show that, indeed, some students DO transfer out of Brown, and in the roughly the same proportion that students transfer out of Penn. From your comments, though, it seems that you and I are basically saying the same thing about this–i.e., that students transfer out of, and between, both schools, and one can’t draw any conclusions about the relative general happiness of the student bodies based on that. :)</p>

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<p>^ I was refuting the fact that higher retention rates at Brown means that students are happier (but may have misread some things because I was pretty sleep deprived) :)</p>