<p>DD has been accepted to Columbia and Penn. She is a CS major. I think she could be happy at either one, but this is a difficult decision. The sources I have looked at seem to rank Columbia more highly overall and in Engineering. </p>
<p>However, I am thinking that there may be other factors such as internships, research, and other positives that those numbers do not capture. </p>
<p>Can you tell me what some of these additional factors might be that she should consider in comparing the two schools? Why should she choose Penn over Columbia?</p>
<p>These two schools are really comparable, with no significant difference in ranking either in engineering or overall, given that only a few spaces separate them. In fact, it wasn’t that long ago (4-5 years) that Penn consistently used to be ranked higher than Columbia by US News, and that easily could happen again, so the difference of a few places in these rankings is really inconsequential. And actually, in the most recent National Research Council (NRC) rankings, Penn is ranked somewhat higher than Columbia in Computer Science, so again they’re quite comparable. Beyond that, it really doesn’t make sense to parse the rankings at the undergraduate level when schools are as close as these two.</p>
<p>So what it really comes down to is personal fit and preference in terms of physical campus, campus life, cities in which located, etc. And that’s something that only your daughter can determine based on her own preferences and instinct. As many others do on these forums, I strongly recommend that at this level of academic eminence, your daughter choose the school at which she thinks she’d feel most comfortable, and at which she’d best thrive both academically and socially. The rest will take care of itself. She really can’t go wrong either way, as these are both phenomenal schools.</p>
<p>Congrats to her for having these two great choices!</p>
<p>Honestly, I think that she will be happy at either school. However, since she has been given a choice, I think that we should try to help her make the most informed decision possible.</p>
<p>I understand that they are both great schools and the SEAS colleges are both well regarded. She will attend the Admitted Student Days for each school. However, I hate for it to come down to DD liking the 4 students she met at one school better than the 4 students she liked at the other one. Or one has more polished presentations that appeal to 18 year olds.</p>
<p>What I am really trying to understand is where Columbia and Penn are different. In thinking about activities, clubs, sociability of students, research opportunities, internships, career center, job opportunities etc.</p>
<p>Anyone help me provide her some thoughtful guidance?</p>
<p>When I was there before, I thought that Penn had a larger and nicer campus, but Columbia has a better location (NYC), so that seems like a tradeoff. Penn seems to have more school spirit, but Columbia tends to be ranked a bit higher. </p>
<p>Any additional items that you might have to consider would be appreciated.</p>
<p>I don’t know if finances are an issue for you at all, but living in Uni City and going out in Philly will be less expensive than it will be in NY. If the social life is too expensive that can create a struggle too. I know there are a lot of things to do at Penn on campus that are free or very affordable. A lot of the social scene is focused on campus. I would want to know if Columbia’s social life is mostly focused on going out in the city and how expensive that will be. </p>
<p>If you are saying both schools meet her needs academically, then it is time to look at other lifestyle factors. </p>
<p>I am trying to take cost out of the equation, and understand any differences in the experience or personality of the two schools.</p>
<p>I have the impression that Columbia is a bit stronger academically but Penn is still terrific. I have the impression that Penn students seem to be hard working, but are also socially oriented. I have not spent enough time to know how Columbia students are similar or different from that, and was hoping that someone here has some observations or experiences that could be helpful.</p>
I’m fairly confident both schools will have fairly polished presentations, so that’s a wash. All other things being equal, I’m not sure I would fault the strategy of picking a school where she liked the other admitted applicants.
Columbia’s social life is also focused primarily, although not exclusively, on campus and around Morningside Heights. It’s not very often that the students hop on the 1 train, certainly less often than Penn students venture into Center City. Manhattan, in general, is more expensive than Phila, but students do sniff out the bargains. Penn has fairly reasonable options for off-campus living, which are non-existent at Columbia.
While not necessarily agreeing with you, I would point out that, while never a powerhouse, the Lions were 0-10 this year and Kraft Field is 100 blocks north of campus while Franklin Field is on campus.</p>
<p>Frankly, I thinks it’s a wash. The only thing that I can think of is that while both Fu and SEAS have Liberal Arts requirements, Penn has more flexibility. At Columbia you have to take University Writing, Econ, and either Art Hum or Music Hum. I think it will all come down to fit once she revisits both.</p>
<p>BTW, congrats. It’s great that she has options.</p>
<p>Skieurope:
I will admit that Penn having more school spirit is a rough impression. I don’t have a good basis for it except that the Penn website shows things like happy students having fun with faces painted in Penn colors and Columbia’s tends to show buildings. I will investigate more next week.</p>
<p>Yes, the common core at Columbia versus a more flexible core at Penn is a difference. </p>
<p>I am also thinking that since they are both premier schools, that her post-college opportunities may hinge on what she does while she is there, how she builds her network, and what experiences she gains there. Are there any unique opportunities that give one college an advantage over the other? </p>
<p>I would think that Columbia has an advantage in that there would seem to be more internship opportunities in Manhattan. However, Penn presents the opportunity to take some business classes at Wharton, and she does have an interest in Finance. </p>
<p>In addition, it seems that Penn does a good job of marketing themselves as the “Social Ivy.” A place where you can get a great education and still be a college kid and have fun. I am not sure how much the social environment is really better for students and how much of that is just marketing. </p>
<p>Any thought would be appreciated.</p>
<p>Jashbela:
I appreciate you sharing your thought, but I am hoping that you can be more specific. I would really appreciate any insights that you might have.</p>
<p>In my opinion, the opportunities for networking, building contacts, working on research,etc will be comparable at both institutions, If your daughter is interested in internships specifically in Manhattan, Columbia has the edge. Penn has Wharton and that is an advantage of Penn. Penn has long had the reputation as the social ivy, but both schools are diverse enough that one can fulfill one’s interests. Columbia, outside of intro foreign language courses, rarely has Friday classes. </p>
<p>Columbia has the smallest campus of the ivies, and as a result, some facilities are less than ideal. Dodge Fitness is an underground dungeon. On the flip side, Penn, under earlier administrations, chose to expand by building the eyesore known as Superblock. :)</p>
<p>If you’re talking about during the school year, then yes, of course there will be a much greater volume of opportunities in Manhattan than in Philadelphia. But if you’re talking about summer internships, then the opportunities will be comparable at the two schools, if not even greater at Penn. Because of the presence of Wharton, Penn has one of the best and most comprehensive on-campus recruiting programs in the country, and it is available to ALL undergrads and not just those in Wharton. Accordingly, Penn undergrads generally do quite well in obtaining summer internships, including in Manhattan. Of course, if you really want to get into the weeds on this, you could compare the actual recruiting results of the two schools. Here are Penn’s going back quite a few years (for both summer and permanent positions):</p>
<p>You’ll have to find Columbia’s yourself (assuming they’re available ).</p>
<p>But again, I really wouldn’t focus on this as a deciding factor, because these two schools are really quite comparable in this regard (as they are in many other ways).</p>
<p>Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I think you’re kind of grasping at straws in trying to find some objective basis on which to make–or recommend–a decision between these two schools. Again, at this level of academic eminence, it really should be more of a holistic, instinctive (albeit well-informed) decision by your daughter based on the general “feel” of the two schools to her, and that’s necessarily a very personal decision. But having said that, having gone through this with my own college choice too many decades ago, and with my own daughter within the last few years, I truly sympathize with your desire to help her find some sort of objective basis on which to make this decision.</p>
<p>Once again, congratulations to both of you, and best of luck in making the decision. You can rest assured, however, that she can’t go wrong either way. :)</p>
But has since atoned for that with the addition and construction of areas like Penn Park. ;)</p>
<p>To put it in perspective, Penn’s campus is about 300 acres, and includes lots of green space, shaded walkways, courtyards, etc., some of which feel quite secluded from the big city beyond. Columbia’s campus, on the other hand, is only 35 acres. Quite lovely in its own way, but very small. In terms of physical campus, these two schools are significantly different in size and feel.</p>
<p>Well, you are right. I am grasping at straws a bit. As you can probably tell, this is our oldest child and first time through this and I really want to help her make good decisions. It is an incredible opportunity and big decision for an 18 year old to make.</p>
<p>Based on what I am hearing here, it seems like what will matter the most is how she fits in with the people she meets and which one she is most excited to attend. If she is happy, and excited and feels like it is a good fit, she will have a better ability to make the most of this opportunity, to excel and be more active beyond academics. </p>
<p>If anyone thinks of additional items we should consider, I would really appreciate your thoughts.</p>
<p>My D was faced with the same choice a couple of years ago and chose Penn. She did not like the core curriculum, language requirement and I think there’s a swimming requirement, if I’m not getting mixed up with another school?
Columbia came across generally as more rigid, while Penn was warm and welcoming and more flexible. It might just be a perceived difference rather than real but its the kind of thing that can sway the decision for the student.
As mentioned in the many posts before, academically they are both excellent, but while the comfort level might not seem so important to parents its a huge deal to a kid leaving home for the first time.</p>
<p>But it really involves a combination of factors, and the relative weight of each factor will vary on a personal level from applicant to applicant. So it’s not just the other students she meets (both schools are large and diverse enough that there will be a wide enough variety of students in the student body for her to find her niche). As said before, it’s also:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>the general curriculum (Columbia’s rigid core versus Penn’s more flexible distribution requirements);</p></li>
<li><p>the variety and scope of courses in other schools of the university that are available to her (at Penn, she can take courses in Wharton, Nursing, the Law School, the School of Design, the Graduate School of Education, the School of Social Policy and Practice, the Annenberg School for Communication, etc. under Penn’s “One University” policy with no need for any special dispensation–don’t think there’s a similar policy at Columbia);</p></li>
<li><p>the size and feel of the campuses;</p></li>
<li><p>the cities–and don’t assume that NYC is necessarily better for a college student. Center City Philadelphia–and its many restaurants, nightlife, history, and culture–are extremely accessible to Penn students, in many different ways (affordability, location, etc.), and many students prefer the “manageability” of Philly as a big city in which to attend college, compared to the craziness (meant in an affectionate way) of Manhattan. And Manhattan is just a $10 or less, 2-hour bus ride from Penn, on the Bolt Bus or Megabus that leave frequently from a location a few blocks from Penn’s campus, and drop you in the middle of mid-town Manhattan (many Penn students use these buses at some point in their Penn careers to take weekend, or even single-day, trips to NYC). So this, again, is a personal choice, depending on each student’s preference of where she thinks she would be most comfortable attending college on a daily basis;</p></li>
<li><p>and any other factor that might be personal and unique to your daughter.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>So once again, it’s much more a matter of subjective “feel” than of a particular set of quantifiable or objective factors, and after becoming well informed, she ultimately has to rely on her gut. And if she’s happy and productive at the school she chooses, the rest will take care of itself.</p>
<p>Really, keep repeating to yourself, “there IS no wrong choice here.” Your daughter has hit the jackpot, and has two equally phenomenal choices. So relax, and enjoy it!</p>
<p>Penn has a foreign language requirement for CAS. Columbia has a foreign language requirement for CC. Neither has a foreign language requirement for engineering.</p>
<p>Columbia has a swimming requirement for Columbia College; Fu abolished that requirement in 1992.</p>
<p>I think the foreign language requirement is good for students. My D only had 2 years of HS foreign language when she started her freshman year at Penn CAS. Thanks to this requirement she had the opportunity to seriously relearn the foreign language and her mind was really opened when she participated in the summer study abroad. She later took 1 more class beyond the requirement. She would take more if she has time. She is in SEAS now.</p>
<p>My D had a paid research assistant job during her freshman, sophomore, and early junior years.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone. That is helpful. She will make final visits next week before deciding. </p>
<p>I have been reading student reviews and in general, the ones from Penn students seem somewhat more positive. </p>
<p>I think she will have met her foreign language requirement (4 years of Latin) and she is a good swimmer (recruited by CMU and MIT) so that is not an issue.</p>
<p>I am starting to feel more relaxed about this decision. Thanks for the information, everyone. I appreciate it.</p>
<p>Philadelphia is definitely a more friendly environment for a college student than NYC. NYC might look glamorous, but it’s incredibly expensive and I here it takes away from Columbia’s on campus life. At Penn, Rittenhouse square is ten minutes away but the on campus scene is still very vibrant.</p>
<p>The ranking does’t really matter in this case, Columbia and Penn trade places every few years or so and their endowments are very comparable. People choose one over the other all the time. For the choice of Penn over Columbia vice versa I think the things one should consider are the campus environment/location, the core curriculum, and differences in academic environment (which are very subtle, but I don’t know much about Columbia).</p>
).</p>