<p>^ To add to that, Penn has been Top 4-7 in US News Rankings and ranked above both Duke and Dartmouth consecutively for over a decade now, and is almost surely to continue to trump these two schools for many years to come.</p>
<p>^ If I may interject what does Columbia have to do with this thread? Columbia is doing the same thing via General Studies, which it doesn’t include in it’s admission statistics even though it’s an undergrad program, it also doesn’t report it’s wait list acceptances to adjust it’s admissions data(It admits a substantial # of applicants off of the wait list). Btw UPenn CAS = Columbia College at almost everything. (In the same way UPenn SEAS= Columbia SEAS). Wharton on the other hand is at the HYP level.</p>
<p>In conclusion:</p>
<p>Penn CAS=Columbia College=Duke</p>
<p>WOW all of you are so petty and misinformed. For undergraduate students Penn is every bit as good as Columbia and Duke. The 3 schools are virtually identical in terms of Prestige and student bodies. Give props where props are due, they are all excellent schools second only to HPY in my opinion, the OP will be successful regardless of the school he chooses to attend specially with schools that are so similar academically. In my opinion:-</p>
<p>Tier 1:- HPYS (maybe M)
Tier 2:- Penn Duke Columbia
Tier 3:- Brown Dartmouth Chicago NU
Tier 4:- WUSTL Cornell JHU</p>
<p>To the OP :- It seems like you are leaning towards Duke I would encourage you to explore all your options and visit each school’s campus to get a feel of the atmosphere. However, don’t let anyone other than yourself influence your decision. If you choose Duke you will have chosen an excellent institution that is unarguably one of the best in the country. If you choose Penn I can assure you that we will welcome you with open arms and ensure that you will have the experience of a lifetime. That is of course provided you get into these institutions in the first place. Your application is definitely impressive though, Ill hand that to you.</p>
<p>I don’t know why financial aid is being discussed when the OP said in the first post: </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Unless that’s changed. OP - That’s why somebody suggested Dartmouth is easier to get into than Duke and UPenn, because they thought you needed aid and Dartmouth is need-blind for internationals (one of only 6 schools in the country; HYPM, Amherst, Dartmouth) while Duke and UPenn are only need-blind for U.S. citizens. So, yes, it’s probably true that Dartmouth is easier to get into for internationals who need aid than Duke and UPenn because the latter two have a very limited number of slots.</p>
<p>Again, it’s personal taste. I’d suggest visiting the campuses and interact with the students and see where you think you’d be happier. I did a big college visit trip on the east coast in one fell swoop and came to the conclusion that Duke was my clear #1 and UPenn was my clear #2 (above the other 5 schools I visited). Others may come to a different conclusion. You really can’t go wrong if you’re lucky enough to be admitted to either of these fine universities.</p>
<p>** Rhodes Scholars from 1987-2011 aka the past 25 years**
<a href=“Office of the American Secretary | The Rhodes Scholarships”>http://www.rhodesscholar.org/stats/</a>
University of Chicago: 23
Duke: 22
Columbia: 14
Dartmouth: 9
Penn: 5</p>
<p>Penn’s performance in the most prestigious honor given to undergraduates is rather poor compared to its peers for some reason.</p>
<p>^ Rhodes is purely academic based, UChicago is is an academic powerhouse, probably more than any other school in the country, meaning that the rhodes scholarship is irrelevant to this thread’s topic.</p>
<p>For example, from 1987-2011 Brown also had 5 winners of Rhodes because Brown is not an academic power-house, however it is still a highly regarded school.</p>
<p>@eldiablo</p>
<p>From your link:</p>
<p>“Please keep in mind though that the Rhodes Scholarship competition has never been a national one, so state and institutional comparisons are not particularly relevant or meaningful.”</p>
<p>I don’t think that focusing on a few dozen Rhodes Scholars really makes a convincing case. What about the other 99.99% of students at these schools? Job placement, campus recruiting, and starting salaries are far more important in determining the long term benefit of attending these schools.</p>
<p>^ Exactly 10 char</p>
<p>shaheirunderdog,</p>
<p>If you took the time to read a bit more about the Rhodes Scholarship, you’d see that it is about much more than academics. Outstanding academics are only the starting point.</p>
<p>It’s true as the rhodes folks point out that a simplistic body count probably does not give one the final word about an institution’s quality. It does, however, say something about an institution’s ability to attract future star students. </p>
<p>Interestingly, for the rhodes folks to say the competition is not a national one is a bit disingenuous. While the competitors are divided into 16 districts, and competition is only among students within a district, this is irrelevant for colleges with a strong national draw. Even strong regional colleges draw heavily from surrounding states, commonly in different districts.</p>
<p>So, from the POV of an individual applicant, it’s a regional competition. From the POV of a college, it’s not.</p>
<p>The decision between Penn and Duke is simply one of personal preference. It looks corky to argue any meaningful differences in prestige or selectivity.</p>
<p>I think Internationals tend to have a very different perspective on undergrad vs. students in the US. For example Dartmouth has </p>
<ul>
<li>the highest per student endowment among Ivies after HYP (3 times as rich as Penn)</li>
<li>Most alumni giving and highest reunion attendance after Princeton</li>
<li><p>Highest rated teaching in the country</p></li>
<li><p>The highest average income after graduation after Princeton and Harvard (payscale)</p></li>
<li><p>Best placement on Wall Street/ consulting (the most coveted jobs) after Princeton/W/H</p></li>
<li><p>Beats all the non-HYP Ivies placing its students into top graduate schools (WSJ)</p></li>
<li><p>Sends the most to the peace corps of any Ivy</p></li>
</ul>
<p>It always astounds me how the most important aspects of an undergraduate education - namely the success, loyalty, and happiness of graduates is overlooked. Dartmouth rocks every category that matters, to see it below Penn, Duke, or Columbia’s “tier” is laughable.</p>
<p>@slipper1234</p>
<p>“per student endowment” means nothing - look at what each college is actually spending.</p>
<p>[Dartmouth</a> News - Dartmouth Board of Trustees approves measures to close $100 million budget gap](<a href=“http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2010/02/08.html]Dartmouth”>http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2010/02/08.html)</p>
<p>As Dartmouth agonizes over a measly $100 million budget gap, Penn maintains an annual budget of over $6 billion - considerably higher than any other Ivy.</p>
<p>The only thing “laughable” is that Dartmouth students are willing to lock themselves away in a frozen, distant-rural campus for four years and actually believe that they’re at a HYP level.</p>
<p>Funny for someone going to Penn (and with the current budget crisis everywhere) that you don’t read deeply enough to see is a $100M GAP not BUDGET. </p>
<p>Dartmouth’s annual Budget is also in the BILLIONS as well, for about 1/4 of the overall population of Penn. It spends more than any other Ivy on undergraduate grants and advising (COHE report). Per-student endowment is critical.</p>
<p>As a side note - Penn’s annual budget is 4th among the Ivies after Harvard, Yale, and Columbia (that includes grad students). BUT on a per student basis its budget is 7th, above only Brown and Cornell.</p>
<p>I don’t see in one possible way how Penn could be on a higher tier than Dartmouth for undergrad, I’d say its the opposite.</p>
<p>Slipper, let me start by saying that I agree with you that Dartmouth is excellent, second only to HYPSM. As far as I am concerned, it comes in the group of universities that automatically proceed them (certainly on par with the likes of Brown, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Penn…)</p>
<p>This said, I think it is important to note that comparing Dartmouth to most major research universities is unfair, both to Dartmouth and to the research-intensive university in question. </p>
<p>You state above that Dartnmouth’s operating budget runs in the billions (i.e., over $2 billion). I read somewhere not too long ago that Dartmouth’s operating budget (not including the medical school) was under $1 billion. Not that it matters since Dartmouth is tiny. On the one hand, Dartmouth does not require a hugfe operating budget and on the other hand, one should take economies of scale into account. Do you have a link that shows spending per student? I would not be surprised if Dartmouth were indeed 4th in the Ivy League, but I am curious.</p>
<p>Finally, I think it is important to note that Dartmouth is a niche school, much like Caltech, Chicago and Notre Dame. Only a fraction of the population would find the school appealing. Most students would find the school and its surroundings way too small and remote for their taste. I personally know very few students who would even apply after visiting the school. This may explain why those who do choose to attend love it so much.</p>
<p>Alexandre,</p>
<p>Firstoff in incorporating budgets the Penn number includes all its graduate programs, so you would have to include Dartmouth’s Medical school to compare it evenly. So it is in the billion+ range as well. My main point was that Dartmouth’s undergraduate focus rewards its students with exceptional spending per student and this leads to exceptional placement. The resources available and focused on undergrads goes beyond what I’ve seen elsewhere.</p>
<p>As for your analysis of its desirability I respectfully disagree. Many students prefer the loyalty, tightknit student experience, and actual college campus feel of a Dartmouth or Duke over a Columbia or Penn. Given the surge of apps at all of these schools and their near-equal selectivity I just don’t see how any can be seen are more desirable than the other.</p>
<p>Anyway this thread is about Penn and Duke.</p>
<p>@slipper1234</p>
<p>Penn’s spending is the highest in the Ivy League by far. I’m not sure where you’re getting these numbers. Penn’s annual budget is $6 billion whereas the only possible competitor, Harvard, is at $3.8 billion.</p>
<p>PhillyBound, the $6 billion figure includes the cost of the medical program and of the hospital. Harvard does not include those numbers in its operating costs figures. Typically, a medical program and hospital will be equal to half of a university’s entire operating budget. As such, I would estimate that if you compare apples to apples (and left our hospitals and medical schools), Harvard’s $3.8 billion operating budget is the largest in the Ivy League, followed by either Columbia, Cornell, Penn or Yale, all of which would be close to each other. I would expect Brown, Dartmouth and Princeton to have trhe lowest operating costs given their relatively small size.</p>