Penn vs Georgetown Social Experience

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
21

@PennCAS2014 - yes, I agree, UPenn now is better (in many ways) than it was in the 90s, and the Rodin + Gutmann presidencies have brought the school forward. Most other top schools are better now than then too, though. (Dartmouth has many problems now, but it was a different place 20 years ago, especially in terms of student culture - some would say, a lesser place.) Your exegesis over-exaggerates the weaknesses though, and leaves out some context (for instance, Penn’s really dark years were in the 70s/80s, and Rodin moved quickly - by the late 90s/early 00s, the undergrad was very much in the midst of a renaissance. U. of Penn Medicine was a different story, and also separate from the undergrad story. Penn Medicine also lucked out with some great hires - like Ralph Mueller, who turned that ship around for myriad reasons. Also, crime in a city is a bit of a red herring - look at UChicago and Hopkins, they’re both enjoying great success now in terms of admissions, but crime is a mess not far from both those schools. The truth is, UPenn, like other urban schools, enjoyed a pendulum swing in student preference - away from rural colleges to urban ones. Yes Penn has made strides forward, but so have most of the other top urban unis. In contrast, places like Williams and Amherst - schools that have great leadership over many years - now struggle in comparison.)

BACK to my main thesis: my whole point is that student preferences are whimsical - they can shift over time, sometimes quickly, You see that in the change from 2006 to 2016. Who is to say what they’ll look like in 2026 or 2036?

A college decision sticks with you a long time - and the preferences in 10 years could look quite different than they do now. Why consider this when the numbers could look very different not long from now?

There have been significant pendulum swings in student preference over the past 20 years, but, again, ESPECIALLY over the past 10 years, the standing of schools have been pretty consistent. Yes, maybe Dartmouth’s leadership and fundraising have been lackluster, but it’s still in an eminent position - UPenn and Dartmouth are still peers, in ways that Penn winning 69% of the cross admit battle does not suggest - just as, in the 90s AND in 2006, Penn and Dartmouth were still peers, no matter what the cross admit data says.

@PennCAS2014 - I implore you, don’t forget how whimsical student preferences can be. Please don’t confuse what students chose (which can shift radically) as indication of a school’s strength. If US News decides to preference smaller/rural colleges, and the mis-characterization of Penn as a “pressure cooker” amplifies, the picture could look very different - even though these changes might not be meshed in reality. It wouldn’t be a stretch to see students choosing Brown or Dartmouth again over UPenn - for the same flimsy reasons that they did in 1996 or 2006.

Finally, re Yale - I’m not talking about who recruits during OCR - by exit options and resources, I mean that mix of what a school can provide for its undergrads, and the network that can enliven one’s exit options (immediately after graduation and beyond). Yale generally is more undergrad-focused than Columbia, and showers resources (be it through their residential college system, the linkages to power, brand both nationally and internationally, etc.) on its students. There are many perfectly good reasons to pick Columbia over Yale, but there are some fairly compelling points in Yale’s favor, especially when looked at thru the lens of a college decision carrying forward for some time. As I said before, there are only 5 schools (HYPMS) where these factors should be considered vis a vis the next dozen top places. After that, when dealing with the next dozen (of which UPenn and Georgetown are certainly part), go on fit, and so on down the line.

22

@Cue7 I do not claim that Penn and GU are not on par just because of student preferences. I claim it because Penn is definitely stronger in most disciplines and the quality of academic and research opportunities is higher there. The quality of the student body is also higher there. Saying that fit is the only consideration between Penn and GU and that otherwise the schools are equivalent, is rather disingenuous.

Definitely disagree. Sure, no one is denying that HYPSM is a cut above the rest, but the next 20-25 schools are not seen as interchangeable by most people. Sure people choose mainly based on fit when choosing among say Penn, Columbia , Duke, UChicago. But fit is far from the only consideration when choosing between Columbia vs Emory/GU for example.

23

@NeedInfo1244

While it appeared you asked about Penn/GU social life, the CC community knew instead you really wanted a history of Penn, Dartmouth, HYPMS pissing match! Oh my…

You might have better luck with this kind of question on FB or maybe looking at sites like Studentlife or unigro.

The problem with asking on CC is most students leave CC once they are accepted to school, not to return until they are the parent of a high schooler!

But from my time in Philly and DC and talking over the years with students who have attended both, they both are relatively big UG schools with lots of kids looking for something fun to do so for kids who are looking for social events, there’s usually no lack of options. Both have realitively well definded campuses and not enough commuters for that to be an issue. As noted Penn’s UG on campus “party scene” is centered around the Locust Walk fraternities for the most part.

Georgetown, according to a good friend’s D who just graduated (and whose sister went to Penn,) has more on-campus parties that have to be a bit more low key so as not to get busted.

But if social life is more than “parties” Penn does lack a bit a central student hangout. Houston Hall is that a bit (but, ironically, was much moreso back in the “bad old” 70/80’s when it had a Rathskeller and pin ball arcade and no Hardees or whatever is there now…) Huntsman will have Wharton students hanging out. The library and when it’s nice locust walk.

Georgetown is a bit more influenced by its athletics and its Catholic background. And, of course, DC and Phila are different cities.

I’d really try to find some current students and check in with them. They’ll give you the best insight.

Ok everyone can get back to their ranking battle…

24

@Penn95 I was referring to statistics I recall reviewing a few years ago when I was looking at both Penn and Georgetown and recall seeing a 30/70 cross admit with Penn. Perhaps the percentage may have changed recently, but I can tell you that we have MANY students at Georgetown that turned down Penn for Georgetown and the biggest reasons we hear on campus are, 1) location, 2) academic programs, and 3) perceived social experience.

Georgetown does not disappoint. I would have to believe it is more of tight knit community than Penn simply due to its size, location, and overall quality of the student body

25

@Cue7 You seem to be ignoring what I’m actually saying regarding Penn/schools like Georgetown and Dartmouth, which is fine. It’s not particularly important nor is it related directly to the major points about comparing Penn/Georgetown.

The last thing I’ll say is that you keep pointing to ‘that mix of what a school can provide for its undergrads, and the network that can enliven one’s exit options (immediately after graduation and beyond)’ but you haven’t given any concrete examples of what that actually means and thus you I don’t see your reasoning for why it’s okay to consider HYPSM distinct from Columbia and Penn but why P&C should not similarly be considered distinct from the schools that have much smaller endowments, more limited networks, lower international profiles, fewer on-campus-recruiting opportunities in prestige fields, etc. etc… What are those five schools ACTUALLY offering that schools like Columbia & Penn can’t (not the opportunities they just choose not to offer because of institutional preference, but the ones they literally don’t have the capacity to offer)? Yale’s residential college system? Well that’s unique to Yale and you won’t even find that at Stanford or Princeton. Does that mean you shouldn’t pick Princeton or Stanford for fit; or do it mean that they’re using their resources differently but in ways that translate to different but equally valid opportunities for their students? Should you pick Penn over Princeton/Stanford because it’s College Houses are much more similar to Yale’s res life than Stanford’s is to Yale’s? Columbia spends more on giving its students direct access to NYC than Yale spends on the residential colleges which is arguably much more valuable from a “networking” perspective that might "enliven one’s exit options (immediately after graduation and beyond).’

Essentially, if you’re going to say that it’s okay to look past fit when it comes to HYPSM as compared to every other school, but not okay when comparing P&C to other schools, you need to give some real reasons why. And when you do, you’ll see those reasons at most mirror the difference that exist between a Penn and Georgetown. Penn is distinct from a school like Georgetown because recruiters from the business world actually do recruit more heavily and more seriously at Penn than at Georgetown; because the amount of research at Penn is SIGNIFICANTLY greater, better funded, and more highly accessible to undergrads due to Penn’s One University policy and the fact that all of Penn’s schools are on one campus; because Georgetown’s endowment is $1.4 billion while Penn’s is $12.2billion (Much closer to MIT’s is $14.8 billion and still slightly closer to Princeton’s $22.2 billion, than Georgetown’s $1.4billion); because Penn pays its professors, on average, more than Georgetown despite the lower cost of living in Philadelphia than DC which has contributed to a more successful recruitment and retainment process for profs. There are actual differences in exit options between Penn and Georgetown in the business world, actual differences in the amount and accessibility of top flight research between Penn and Georgetown, and actual differences in the amount of money Penn and Georgetown have to spend on building/infrastructure, financial aid, etc. etc. etc. Assuming you provide actual evidence that those differences exist between schools like Princeton and Penn/Columbia (which outside of endowment resources, I have yet to see), then you also must explain why those things matter when comparing Princeton and Penn, but why they don’t matter when considering Penn and Georgetown.

But again, OP, social life at both schools will probably be fulfilling. I think there are other things you might want to consider beyond social life-- but that’s up to you. I think you’ll be really happy at both from a social perspective since students at both schools are going to be fun, down to earth, and interested in making close friendships and bonds that they’ll carry with them through the rest of their professional and persona lives.

26

@PennCAS2014 - you tell me, how did “HYPMS” become a moniker on this board? Why are Harvard, Yale, and Princeton known as the “big three”? What’s the source for all that cachet?

I only said that if you’re considering between these 5 and elsewhere, the brand should be A factor. It shouldn’t even be a predominant factor - just a factor. If you’d like to NOT consider it, that’s fine.

And you know what? If you say you should pick between Penn and Yale primarily on fit, that’s just fine with me. I think differently, but you can certainly make that argument. And you know what else? If you want to pick between Penn and Georgetown, and Georgetown and Yale, based on fit and nothing else, that’s fine too. But, just be consistent about it then.

It frustrates me that you and other Penn supporters present certain stats as evidence of Penn’s unequivocal strength over other schools. What you say about recruiting, endowment, etc. for Penn holds over Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, etc., too. BUT, so what?

Choosing a college should primarily be about fit and it seems like the matter of choosing between Penn and Georgetown - a true champagne problem - and the disparity in any outcomes present, are minuscule at best.

I don’t think choosing a college should link to certain monolithic factors (like placement, endowment, research opportunities, etc.) with the emphasis that you place on these factors.

Do you Penn lovers ever get tired of espousing the greatness of the school, when the counterpoint is merely “pick on fit”?

If you see no real delineation between HYPMS and the rest, then, by all means, advocate picking for fit when deciding between those schools and a bunch of other schools.

Bottom line: if it lets you sleep better, I have no problem advocating picking between Georgetown and Harvard for fit, or Penn and Yale for fit, or, similarly, picking Georgetown over UPenn for fit.

This insistent refrain of a certain rigid hierarchy of schools (with UPenn apparently near the top, probably with Harvard and Columbia nearby, and clearly removed from Georgetown) is exhausting.

27

@Cue7 I think you are oversimplifying it. HYPSM plays at a different level no question about that. I also agree that most people choose based on fit amongst all the non-HYP ivies, UChicago, Duke. I just don’t think fit is the primary consideration for most people who are choosing between Columbia/Penn/Brown vs Emory/WUSTL/Georgetown for example. Maybe i should be (that is a different conversation) but practically it is not.

28

@Penn95 - but @PennCAS2014 does NOT agree that HYPSM plays at a different level than Penn, Columbia, etc.

My point then is, if you’re not going to delineate between HYPSM and the rest, why try to look for disparities between Penn and Georgetown?

The best guidance then - when choosing between Penn and Georgetown, or Penn and Harvard, or whatever, is fit. I mean, come on, these are champagne problems. (And please don’t point to ephemeral student preferences rankings!)

29

@Cue7
I think it is pretty clear that HYPSM plays at a different level, I don’t think this is really up for debate. I can’t find any piece of data or even anecdotal evidence from my experience that would lead me to believe otherwise.

I agree these are first-world problems but many students face those dilemmas every year and without fail they tend to choose a specific way for some pretty well-known reasons. The reasons a HYPSM - Penn cross admit will most likely choose HYPSM are more or less similar to the reasons a Penn - GU cross-admit will most likely choose Penn. The reasons being 1. prestige 2. strength in their areas of interest.

My theory is that the kind of people who strive for the top schools consider fit as a primary determinant only when looking at schools with similar 1. overall prestige and 2. academic strength in what they want to study. At least this is how my classmates at my east coast prep school chose colleges and how many of my friends at Penn chose as well.

30

@Penn95 - well, can you then educate @PennCAS2014 on the differences between UPenn and the HYPMS schools? Because @PennCAS2014 says that, outside of endowment resources, s/he doesn’t see much difference.

I’ll just close by saying “overall prestige” can change - sometimes quickly. Imo, outside of HYPMS (who have been held in high regard for sometime, and even here Stanford is a newer comer), there is some churn amongst the top schools.

If you look at the 80s, 90s, 00s, and now, schools tend to rise and fall as little bit. At one time, Dartmouth Williams and Amherst clearly held rank over many top urban schools. Chicago was a backup for northwestern. Penn and cornell were doormat ivies. Hopkins was a far cry in selectivity from Georgetown. (I mean in terms of perceived pecking order, I think such characterizations are silly.)

Now, a lot has changed, but who’s to say it won’t change in the future?

The schools with the most consistent top reps over decades seem to be hypms. That’s why I give a nod to those schools. BUT you can throw that out the window too - a college decision sticks for a long time. Don’t make it based on a factor that could readily change later, if the schools are roughly in the same band (And I think both upenn and Georgetown are in the top 1% - even if you could quibble about where in the top 1% they are).

31

@Cue7 now you’re starting to get my point! I don’t deny that HYPSM (an acronym literally only used here so I can’t explain to you how a bunch of 16 year olds decided they liked those 5 schools better than poor little Caltech and wee little Chicago) have more name recognition. Of course they do! But I’m saying that the “certain rigid hierarchy of schools” IS INDEED EXHAUSTING! And the vague comments about HYPSM’s superiority for undergraduates without evidence that students from those schools are actually finding better jobs, enjoying better resources because other schools lack those resources and not because they choose to provide equally valid but different resources, and the like, actually perpetuates a ridiculous overarching hierarchy that obfuscates actual distinctions between the many schools we often discuss! The name recognition and cachet among those five schools isn’t translating into better opportunities than those you would find at the Penns and Columbias of the world anymore, even if they used to back 30 or 40 or 50 years ago. The disparity in “exit opportunities, … resources, and the like” at Penn/Columbia and HYPSM just simply is not greater than those offered by P&C vs Georgetown. But if people on this board insist on recognizing the “differences” between HYPSM and Columbia/Penn then they must be equally willing to recognize the EXACT SAME differences between a Penn/Columbia and a Georgetown. It doesn’t help me sleep better at night-- it’s just the intellectually honest extension of the kinds of comments made in this thread and all over these boards. A 10 billion dollar difference in Penn’s endowment and Princeton’s only means something if the 11 billion dollar difference between Penn’s endowment and Georgetown’s also means something. The ten point difference in Penn’s entering class’ SAT’s and Princeton’s only means something if the 30 point difference between Penn’s entering class’ SAT’s and Georgetown’s means something. The fact that some businesses only seriously recruit at Penn/HYPS and not Georgetown only matters if the fact that all of the same recruiters come to Penn and HYPS. What’s good for the goose is good for the Georgetown, is my point.

And if you read through my posts on this board, more often than not (maybe always? but sometimes i get sloppy) i recommend that students pick colleges at which they can thrive and at which they will find genuine joy in what they study. But just because two schools can be peers in a lot of ways, doesn’t mean they’re identical. So among schools that are all pretty brand-name-y, I usually say “these are the differences between these schools. These are the ACTUAL differences that we can point to and these are the REAL opportunities you forego by choosing one school over another. These are the standout programs at this school you should really take a look at, regardless of the uni’s overall rank or name recognition. But at the end of the day, you’ve gotta be happy! So go where you’ll find yourself most capable of doing well and succeeding.” But I, unlike many other posters, don’t pretend like that advice becomes irrelevant once that magical fairy dust of ~HyPsM~ enters the conversation. If those 5 are playing on a different level, educating their students in ways Columbia/Penn could never even dream of, then why are we all ending up with the same jobs and graduate degrees in the same cities and countries?

32

@PennCAS2014 yes, I think it’s helpful to blur silly distinctions between schools, BUT, I think there are a couple issues with your approach:

1.) A college decision is a bit of a gamble, and HYPMS continue to be the best bets out there over the long term. Remember that schools can shift a bit over time, but HYMPS status has been remarkably constant. M and S are relative newcomers, but by that I mean, since pretty much the late 70s, they’ve been fairly eminent. If you look at USNWR, in 1983, I believe all these schools were in the top 5 (meanwhile, Columbia was barely in the top 20, and UPenn was unranked).

Outside of these schools, prestige can shift a little - Dartmouth and Brown certainly did better in the 90s, as did Duke. Penn has risen here, but who’s to say what things will look like 20 years from now?

Put another way, I’m most confident about HYMPS maintaining their standing well into the future. Yale is still a better “bet” over the long term than UPenn or Columbia, in my eyes. After all, past history dictates that some churn (below the top 5) could occur.

And lest you doubt the flux over time - don’t forget in the 1960s, UChicago had the third highest endowment in the country - behind only Harvard and Yale. Now, it’s endowment standing is barely in the top dozen.

Schools can rise and fall. HYMPS seem the most immune to this.

2.) In your presentation of school strengths, you rarely present the strengths of other schools in the top 1%. So, I don’t doubt that UPenn has superb business placement, benefits from the One University policy, has access to great research, etc. BUT, other top 1% schools have strengths in areas Penn may not. I’m sure Georgetown, with it’s School of Foreign Service and ready access to DC, has governmental employers/int’l options that simply aren’t as readily available to Penn students. Brown, with it’s connection to RISD, probably sees options in the creative arts that Penn may not have. All the 1% schools have varied strengths - and you’d do well to acknowledge that more readily in your posts, rather than to jump into endowment performance, student preferences, etc.

33

@Cue7 Penn as a really awesome program, called Penn in Washington. https://piw.sas.upenn.edu
If you want to get a government position you have top access. By the same token Penn is not in New York, but it has no trouble with access to top business jobs compared to Columbia or NYU. But i agree different schools have varied strengths.

Anyway, regarding your point about the prestige vagaries of the non-HYP ivies, it is rather interesting to see how it played out throughout the 20th century. I d say HYP have remained consistently at the top and Cornell at the bottom. The fortunes of the rest have fluctuated a lot.

In the early to mid 20th century Penn was the (distant) fourth ivy choice after HYP for WASP elites. Then in the 50s-70s Columbia started increasing in prominence. Then in the 70s-80s Dartmouth was the hot ivy after HYP and Penn declined a lot. In late 80s to mid 90s Brown became the hot one. Finally since the late 90s until today Penn and Columbia have been gaining in prominence over the others. You could argue that the rise of Columbia and Penn has been partly for the same reasons Stanford and MIT have risen, i.e. the move away from liberal arts to tech/engineering and pre-professionalism. The other reason would be gentrification of inner cities. But yeah who knows that will happen in the next 20 -30 years.

34

re#32, when I was applying to colleges, it was Penn that was at the bottom. FWIW.

Towards the end of the Vietnam era (if not earlier) , business majors were largely considered dunderhead tools, and Wharton was an easier admit than Penn CAS. IIRC, when I was applying, Penn CAS admit rates were in the 40%s (maybe 43-46??), vs, Cornell CAS 36%, Columbia College 34%. SATs fell similarly.

I had opportunity to review this when my D1 was applying to colleges, because she said nothing I “knew” was relevant. So I took my old college guide out of the library, & compared to current.

AFAIK It pretty much stayed that way till “the age of Milken” when Wall Street became sexy again.

35

@monydad AFAIK back in the 70s and 80s Penn and Cornell were at the bottom more or less. Penn maybe was a bit more so but these two shared the distinction of being doormat ivies over all the others. These two were considered the stepchildren of the ivies. Penn took a huge dive throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s compared to what it was in the earlier part of the 20th century. It hit rock bottom in the 80s I think. Things started changing dramatically for Penn starting in the mid-90s, mainly because of the complete overhaul that Judith Rodin spearheaded and also because of other more general trends in higher ed.

36

@Penn95 and @monydad - UPenn struggled, no doubt, in the times @Penn95 describes, but it had two crown jewels - - Wharton and an excellent medical school - that really allowed it to thrive in ways Cornell could not. For one, when the times changed, there was a source of $$ (Wharton grads have given back to their alma mater, and it’s easier to raise vast sums of money for a medical plant - just look at what Hopkins can do).

More general trends have helped, but Penn has done a good job of leveraging their chief assets for the benefit of the university overall (they can tie so much into Wharton - be in engineering, int’l relations, whatever), and the med plant has enjoyed good leadership and the general swing toward massive levels of support for med plants.

37

Penn was at the bottom. This was not ambiguous. at the time.
Everybody knew it.
Everything you say about Cornell, now, people said about Penn then.

38

@monydad People used to say similar things about Cornell too at that time. Before 70s and 80s, during late 50s, 60s Cornell was at the very bottom, Penn was in decline. During 70s and 80s Penn hit rock bottom but Cornell was pretty close too. It was more like Penn, then Cornell and then all the others for a period of 15-20 yrs in the 70s and 80s. Starting in the 90s until today, Penn has risen but Cornell has remained at the bottom.

39

You can try to spin it however, but everybody who applied to selective colleges around the time I did knows this. It was no secret.

40

just recollected some SATs at the time, I put them in a spreadsheet to compare old vs. new relative selectivity per my daughter’s challenge.

Cornell CAS average SATs were 1320-1330 .IIRC, Penn CAS average was in the mid to upper 1200’s, at best in the 1280s… (all “old scale” prevailing at the time, obviously). Can’t recall more exactly. But significantly lower. Wharton was lower still. Pair that with the admit %s in #33. Sadly I had a disk crash and lost the data. It is all in the old Cass & Birnbaum college guides though, which is where I got them from, anyone can look them up.