<p>I seriously would like to help the world community be joining companies who are researching new and innovative drugs, but there seems to be no entry-level jobs in site on any of the websites I look on. I really don't want to give up on this goal, though, because I don't see myself doing anything else. I really don't see myself being a boring accountant or businessman.</p>
<p>So yeah, any advice? Or am I truly doomed for failure?</p>
<p>Unfortunately yes. </p>
<p>Pharma companies have led the nation as #2 in layoffs for 2 years in a row only being surpassed by state/local govts. There are tons of chemists all over the place with a decade of experience, graduate degrees, and qualifications that would blow any recent grad out of the water and they are willing to work for entry-level salaries. What incentive does pharma companies, most of whom aren’t even hiring at all, have to create entry-level jobs?</p>
<p>Pharma has been in trouble for years. Most of their drugs are coming off patent and their pipelines are nearly dry (it takes 10 years to develop and approve new drugs).</p>
<p>In any case companies in general have been loath to create entry level jobs and provide any sort of training to employees lately. They much prefer to rob other companies of employees. It also looks like Pharma will be off shoring much of their science in the future.</p>
<p>Well, you’ve somewhat implied that the current economic state might be one reason to blame why there is such a lack of entry-level positions in that industry today. That also implies that there might be more once economic conditions are favorable. Luckily, I’m only a Freshman right now, so the economy might already have turned around by the time I’m out of college.</p>
<p>In the case that it doesn’t, however, I must ask if water/environmental chemistry has any better prospects. I also must question if employers really look into the kinds of classes you take, because, even though I plan taking mostly Organic Chemistry/Chemical Engineering classes in college, I plan on working at the wastewater plant my dad works at as a water “chemist”. The reasons I ask these questions is because I’m wondering if I can write this off as “water/environment chemist” work experience :/…</p>
<p>Even if there is a recovery some industries will still have issues for the foreseeable future. Pharma is having serious issues, much of which it brought on itself, by not doing enough R&D (to give big fat paycheck to execs) and allowing all their patents to expire. I very seriously doubt those issues will be resolved any time in the near future as I stated it takes 10 years to develop new drugs. </p>
<p>In my experience, employers don’t care what courses you take as an undergrad. They just glance at your major and classify you accordingly. They care a bit if you do undergrad research, however, all chem undergrads take roughly the same courses. They do care about experience a great deal. </p>
<p>If you can get some really in demand specialized experience in say formulations for paint, glue, packaging, ink etc that would really help you. Formulations are about mixing chemicals, solvents, binders so that they don’t react and give the desired physical properties. They do not teach this in school, colleges study chemicals that do react so the training has to come from the job. Unfortunately it is a catch 22 noone will hire you without significant experience so getting it is near impossible. That is why it pays well there are big barriers to entry causing supply problems. </p>
<p>Any type of job where you are just testing samples will be very low paying and likely dead-end. It is all about the bottom line and reducing the cost/sample. Such jobs typically pay in the $12 to $18 per hour range often without benefits as companies like to hire for such positions via temp agencies so they don’t have to pay benefits and employment taxes and they can fire you for any or no reason with 1 phone call. The temp/contracting agency takes a good chunk of your pay sometimes 1/2.</p>
<p>Chemists at the BSc. level are very fungible, abundant and easily replaceable. There is even a glut of chemists at the Ph. D. level. In general our society produces far more chemists than there are jobs for despite what you have heard of a shortage (companies love to cry shortage to justify more H1-B’s to further reduce salaries).</p>
<p>If despite all this you still want to become a lab technician (BSc. level chemist aka lab monkey/rat) I recommend being sure to learn the popular instrumental methods. Gas and Liquid chromatography coupled to Mass spec detector. FTIR, NMR. The experience working at the waste water plant will be valuable as well.</p>
<p>Chemical Engineering is a different beast all together. It is basically engineering with chemical classes for background. Chemical Engineers deal with taking chemical processes and scaling them up for manufacturing. The pay is pretty good as with most engineering disciplines. However, manufacturing is in decline in the US and chemical plants are closing up. As a result, ChemE positions are expected to decline as reported by the BLS. </p>
<p>In conclusion, most science undergraduate degrees are useful only as a stepping stone to graduate or professional school (med, pharm, dental, PT). Engineering is still good though outsourcing is taking a toll on it. Chemical Engineering might not be the best discipline for job growth. If you are looking for a good degree that will be useful at getting you a middle-class job think accounting, HR, anything that teaches a specific bonafide job function.</p>
<p>So yeah, allow me to begin my next post with a question that is seemingly unrelated to the matter at hand. You see, my goals are to go into a Medicinal Chemistry graduate program, but I must question if I should take some time off after I get my Bachelor’s degree. Basing your answer off of how valuable the experience of working with pharmaceuticals in the industry before going to graduate school alone, should I even take any time off? If so, how many years should I take off to work? Keep in mind that I would be even willing to work for twemp. agencies during this time.</p>
<p>The way that the question relates to the matter at hand is if the answer is the latter and if it would be beneficial for me to take some time off to work. This is because, if I fail to even get enough work experience during my set “off-time” (which, by the sounds of it, is a goos possibility), I think that it would be time to consider different career options. Since I plan on getting out of college virtually debt-free, I don’t consider this a horrible fate at all. Now, if worse comes to worse, the two alternative careers choices that I would consider are either becoming a Chemical Engineer or becoming a Pharmacist. Now, as I implied earlier, I plan on minoring in Chemical Engineering, and, considering that getting a degree in Chemical Engineering would cost less and take considerably less time and money to complete than a PharmD, the former appeals more than the latter. Then again, I might be missing some intellectual aspect of the PharmD that would cause me to draw to that more…</p>
<p>Anyway, speaking of the Chemical Engineering degree, if I come to realize that the worse-case scenario has become a reality, should I pursue a Bachelor’s or Master’s in Chemical Engineering. I know such a question might seem silly, but “over-qualified” seems like a popular buzz-word thrown around by businesses nowadays. I don’t want to find that the Master’s in ChemE would hurt me rather than help me.</p>
<p>If you are truly interested in chemistry:</p>
<p>anything that has to do with materials, especially polymers or semiconductors, may be a good fit, especially if you want to get into manufacturing. These typically ask for a degree in Chemistry, Chemical Engineering or Materials Engineering. They’re hiring quite a bit.</p>
<p>I’m a senior Chemistry major on the Materials track. Experience with hands on CVD/PVD, all the different types of chromatography and electron microscopy, knowledge of materials processing, etc. will all help. Do research/internships. Unfortunately i did mine as a analytical technician, AVOID THOSE. And the most important thing is:</p>
<p>PICK UP ONE OF THESE LANGUAGES: ARABIC, CHINESE, GERMAN or move to the arctic.</p>
<p>Because the US doesn’t need chemistry; just read Chemical & Engineering News (my boss subscribes to it), China, Singapore, Germany, Belgium, Saudi, Canada, etc. are putting up several BILLION DOLLAR petrochemical/coal gasification plants every year while the US is dismanteling at the rate of something like 40 plants a year and chemical companies are either downsizing or going out of business.</p>
<p>And stay the hell away from pharmaceuticals. Count me in for sschoe2 for telling you that. Anything that has to do with biology is worthless.</p>
<p>itz9001:
You are asking really good questions. Unfortunately some of what sschoe2 has to say in reply about the state of affairs in chemistry is true. However I think that he or she is very jaded about past work experiences and that is being reflected in the pessimism you read. Let’s start with the bad news first. From my perspective of almost 30 years in the biotech and pharmaceutical industry, I will be honest and state flat out that I have not experienced a worst time for this industry. Yes job openings are greatly reduced compared to the boom days of the 90’s. But put that in perspective-American industry in general is going through the same downturn. The kind of chemistry that I do-medicinal/organic chemistry- is being outsourced to China and India at a disturbing pace. And continued consolidation of the industry only decreases the kind of competition which drives an upward trend in employment rates.</p>
<p>So with all those negatives, I will argue why I think that sschoe2 sounds like a jilted lover to me and why I think that there still is hope in the pharma world. My own career story might be informative. When I came out of grad school in the early 80’s, it was a similar situation though not quite so bad. Pharma was not hiring, so I took a post doc. After the post doc, hiring was picking up, but I did not have the right skill set, so I took a job in a small biotech. I gained the right skills, and eventually obtained a position with a major pharmaceutical company where I been very successful. As you might guess, I am not one who gives up when presented with obstacles to attaining my goals. My message to you is to follow your dreams, and don’t let anybody’s pessimism stop you in your own pursuit.</p>
<p>As an optimist at heart, I refuse to believe that this downturn can go on forever. For one, I think the era of consolidation is finally over (at least I hope so!!). Pfizer has proven that that business model is a failure. But the reality of globalization is here, and no matter what you decide to do, you must factor that into your career decisions. There must continue to be a place for a strong pharma industry. If you are going to play in that game though, you must prepare yourself adequately. Number 1, excel at your studies. Number 2, do as much independent undergraduate research as you can. Find a professor at your school with an active graduate research program who will take you into his/her group. Wash dishes, do routine reactions, help a graduate student…do whatever it takes. Eventually you will do your research and that will be invaluable. Number 3, when you graduate with top grades and research experience under your belt, grad school is probably going to be mandatory. Because of the nature of the industry, an MS degree is desirable. (By the way, I am a PhD. But I think that today an MS is the way to go. That can the topic of another discussion.). Take the same work ethic through grad school and you will find a good job. Biotech is probably where you will start, but those companies often come and go, so you will have to nimble. I suggest targeting an area like Boston/Cambridge where there are many companies to which you can potentially jump if necessary.</p>
<p>Consider seriously other important functions in the pharma world which require a BS chemistry background. For example, pharmacology, the study of the fate of drugs in the body, is a very interesting area and may be less prone to outsourcing. And analytical chemistry, despite some negative comments above, is a versatile degree you can take into many different industries. Talk to as many professors and chemists in the fields that interest you. A good place to find a variety of chemistry professionals is the local American Chemical Society chapter. I can guarantee you that you will find many like myself who would be willing to discuss career options with you.</p>
<p>Two last items-First, you asked about working in between undergrad and grad school. This is an excellent option if you can find the right position with your BS degree. I know of a number of good BS chemists who absolutely excelled at grad school after having worked for a few years in pharma as lab associates. Second, IF your goal is to be a medicinal chemist (which is an organic chemist who synthesizes new compounds as potential drug candidates), DO NOT go to graduate school in a Medicinal Chemistry program. Instead, obtain your graduate degree in synthetic organic chemistry working with a high profile and highly regarded organic chemistry professor. This is very important in obtaining employment in the pharma industry. It’s a small world, and the grad program you come from and who you worked with makes a lot of difference.</p>
<p>Good luck, and stay focused on your goals.</p>
<p>I admit to being very pessimistic. I got burned and burned badly. I loved science since elementary school. I went to college and worked myself to the bone while people in other majors were partying taking less time consuming and challenging subjects. I told myself that my dedication and hard work would eventually be rewarded.</p>
<p>Now in the end, my job barely sustains me. I have no benefits, I can’t afford a family, I earn less than a garbage collector, have no job security, and frankly my love for science has been diminishing more every day. Meanwhile my friends who went in to accounting, economics, nursing, pharm school are doing infinitely better than I am and are starting families enjoying life, buying homes.</p>
<p>I think it is important to understand the risks involved. The risk is you will invest 6+ years and tens of thousands of dollars and end up with nothing to show for it. Keep in mind college debt is not dischargable at bankruptcy. That is what has happened to me and a disturbing number of others. Can you seriously accept that risk?</p>
<p>I am returning to school next year to go for accounting and I have encouraged everyone I know to not major in science. It is simply not worth it no matter how much you love science.</p>
<p>BTW I have never found the American Chemical Society to be a useful source other than their scientific journals. They write sugar coated PR pieces about the virtues of a career in science and parrot the shortage of scientists propaganda that is constantly spread about, even by the president.</p>