PhD, PsyD, MSW or LCSW

Graduate School
1

I am having a huge dilemma in deciding on what type of graduate program that I wish to pursue. I will be graduating University with a Psychology BA Spring of 2019, and I need help deciding (and differentiating) between the PhD, PsyD, MSW and LCSW degrees.

I wish to pursue a career centered around working with children, which is why I wanted to specialize in Developmental Psychology and Law but I recently became aware of the MSW/LCSW degrees and I feel as though they would suit me better and provide more opportunities than a Law degree would.

So basically these are the main questions that I
have:

  1. Would it be better for me to get the MSW/LCSW or the MSW/doctorate degree? Or is it possible for me to do all three and if so which order?
  2. If I am not interested in a research related career would the PhD or PsyD suit me best?
  3. This is not a question but if anyone has experience with any of the aforementioned programs or career experience in the field please share!
2

First of all, for clarification, the LCSW isn’t a degree. It stands for licensed clinical social worker; it’s a professional licensure that social workers get that allows them to practice clinical social work. Typically, you would go to an MSW program that has a clinical social work track. Once you get your MSW, you have to work in the field a certain number of hours under the supervision of an LCSW and sit for an exam to be eligible for licensure.

  1. It is possible for you to get an MSW, an LCSW and a PhD. Many people with an MSW get a PhD in social work; some get a PhD in clinical or counseling psychology (or school psychology). You can do this in any order - the most traditional route would be to get an MSW first, work for a few years to earn your LCSW, and then return for a PhD (in clinical, counseling, or school psychology, or social work). But you could also get a PhD (in psychology) first and then later get an MSW.

  2. The PhD is a scientist-practitioner degree. The idea behind it is that clinical practitioners are best when they are informed and equipped with the latest research on clinical practice, so PhD students learn to conduct research and consume research so that when they are providing their own practice. The PsyD is a clinical practice focused degree; students do learn how to consume some research, but they mostly focus on honing clinical skills. PsyD programs are typically a year or two shorter than PhDs (they take 4 years, while the PhD takes 5-6), and if you really don’t like research at all, you’ll do far less of it in a PsyD program.

The biggest downside to PsyD programs, though, is that they do not come with funding - you have to borrow money to pay for them out of pocket. Most good PhD programs in the three practice areas (clinical, counseling, and school psych) come with at least partial and usually full funding - which covers your tuition and fees plus a modest stipend for living expenses. At this point in time, the PhD is also more flexible; it gives you more options to teach, consult, move into government or agency work, and potentially do other things. That’s slowly changing, and in the future the PsyD may be considered on par…but at the moment it’s not.

As far as I see it you actually have a variety of options:

  1. MS or PhD in school psychology, which would allow you to work as a licensed school psychologist in schools. You’d counsel students and help develop individualized education plans (IEPs) for students with special needs. The MS takes 2-3 years and the PhD takes 5-6 plus a year of internship. Check out the National Association of School Psychologists for more information.

  2. Master’s in mental health counseling. This is a two-year program, after which in most states you can get licensed as a professional counselor (LPC). This would allow you to do therapy with children too, usually in private practice or working at a clinic or agency. A friend of mine has a master’s in this field and she’s a play therapist.

  3. MSW, and then become an LCSW. MSWs are more flexible than the master’s in MHC but it also takes longer to be licensed as a clinician. But you could do hospital social work, school social work, work in social services, work in private practice or agencies, etc. This is 2 years of school plus a couple years of work experience under the supervision of an LCSW until you get your own license.

  4. PhD (or PsyD) in clinical or counseling psychology. This option takes the longest - 5-6 years, plus a year of internship - but probably offers the highest salaries/reimbursement rates from insurance. They’re also the net cheapest once the funding package is taken into consideration, but the programs are the hardest to get into.

3

Thank you so much for the response and the stellar advice, I truly appreciate it. I recently had an interview at my school for the Maternal and Child Healh Traineeship program and it was brought to my attention that being a Public Health minor would make me a more competitive candidate for a graduate school program. What are your thoughts? I know that some people who purse the undergraduate SW degree are on the advanced track for the MSW as to where they only have to complete one year instead of two. Do you have any knowledge of individuals who are in MSW and/or MPH dual degree programs who were able to “advance” their degree since they would have undergraduate experience like a minor or would this only apply to candidates with their Bachelors in the field?

Again I do appreciate your time and response!

4

Eh. It can be enriching and enhance your knowledge and experience in the program, and if you are super borderline and it comes down to you and a nearly identical candidate without the public health minor, maybe. Or if it’s some complementary area that is related to a subfield - like if you knew you wanted to do hospital social work or public health social work or an MSW/MPH program, the public health minor could help. But in the grand scheme of things a minor doesn’t matter much. Do it if you are interested only.

No. The advanced standing thing only works if you got a BSW and went to a program with an advanced/accelerated track for BSWs. The public health minor won’t help you accelerate through an MPH or a joint program. You may, at minimum, be allowed to substitute a higher-level class for a low-level one (e.g., take advanced statistics instead of intro biostatistics). But in my experience even folks who took epidemiology and intro to public health as undergrads had to take them again. Grad level is different.

5

School psychologists tend to have two post bachelor’s levels for practice, EdS (educational specialist, longer than a typical masters degree) and doctorate. Most EdS level school psychs work in the schools, doctorate level have more flexibility for work settings. Doctorate level can be licenced privately in some states. Most school psychologists do child oriented work.

6

^Yeah, that’s a good point. NASP uses really strange language and is thus kind of confusing. You do need a “specialist-level” degree to get licensed as a school psychologist, and most of those programs confer an EdS at the end. But some specialist-level programs actually confer master’s degrees (MA or MS). Examples are the programs at [Marist College, [url=<a href=“https://www2.humboldt.edu/psychology/programs/graduate-programs/school-psychology-masters-program%5DHumboldt”>https://www2.humboldt.edu/psychology/programs/graduate-programs/school-psychology-masters-program]Humboldt State University](http://www.marist.edu/admission/graduate/school-psychology/), and [Howard University](https://education.howard.edu/programs/masters-school-psychology-and-counseling-services).

However, it IS true that specialist-level master’s programs (and the EdS programs, of course) take longer than your traditional master’s programs - they usually take about 2.5-3 years.

[This page](https://www.nasponline.org/Documents/About%20School%20Psychology/Overview%20of%20Differences%20Among%20Degrees%20in%20School%20Psychology.pdf) has a good chart of the difference between masters-level, specialist-level, and doctoral-level programs.

If you want to go that route, OP, the important thing is to make sure that the program is NASP-approved and leads to licensure in the state you want to practice in. If you’re interested in the doctoral programs, then the program should be APA-accredited. Each organization has a website with lists of accredited/approved programs.

7

Some of this depends on the state you are in, look up who issues licenses in your state for therapists and psychologists and see what the requirements are. There may be specific schools that are accredited and others that are not, so be careful which masters programs or phd or psyd programs you apply to. I know it seems like a lot to soak in, but really once you dive in and research this it will make more sense.

I noticed you are talking about wanting to work with kids, do I have a little experience here and will share it, but this is just my experience and accumulated information and may not represent what your experience would be… ok?

So you may have a very different experience working with kids as an MSW vs as a school psychologist or clinical child psychologist, or any kind of therapist who specializes in working with kids.

MSW programs have a “child welfare” area of focus as well as usually “public policy” and “mental health” at least those seem to be the main areas of focus, and all programs prepare you to an extent as a “generalist” masters level social worker. What happens is people think they like kids, they think they would like to help kids out, and they get that “child welfare” focused MSW.

Here is the problem, from what I’ve seen most of these jobs are very low paying, working at massive agencies like Child and Family Services or CPS or a foster family agency or something like this. For one thing, this is dangerous work and you may not have any adequate support in the field at all times. Another issue is that the vast majority of the time from what I’ve seen you don’t actually work with kids, you do endless paperwork and case management where you rarely actually do face to face work that is probably what you like, furthermore that face to face work is more likely going to be with mom and dad, or it will be supervising visits where you are always trying to explain your role to children and managing the crazy stuff their parents do, the lies they tell their kids, and trying to patch the Titanic with a cork from a wine bottle.

I know some people aren’t going to like these comments on my part, but that’s just the reality from what I’ve seen, and there is a ton of burnout because people feel totally useless and don’t yet know how to accept that their efforts as MSWs often will not result in what would be anything like ideal outcomes.

I’m going for an MSW and just applied to schools, but I interned with a child welfare agency and got enough of a dose of that to never want to work in child welfare, plus look around the web, go on reddit’s social worker section and ask how people like child welfare. It’s very very tricky to do that work and figure out a way to be ok with it before burning out. So anyways I’m doing a mental health focus and that means I will have the ability to work with children and adults as a therapist.

The way the license process goes in California is like this, you get an MSW from an accredited graduate school that meets all the CSWE requirements and that is on the approved list of schools for California. You then apply with the state for your ASW associate clinical social worker. You have to work with supervision for 3000 + hours and pass several state exams after all those hours are verified, then you apply for the LCSW license and it is granted. Once you have an LCSW you can open up a private practice if you wanted to be a therapist or you could work in someone else’s practice or work for an agency like the VA or some other social service organization, or even work in certain capacities at schools such as a college counselor.

I’m going this route because LCSW’s in California tend to make more money for some reason, they have better reimbursement from insurance companies, and I could transition into a variety of roles with an MSW and or LCSW such as working in hospitals, working in child welfare, working in government, or in mental health or addiction treatment etc.

the other kinds of masters level degrees to consider are the MFT marriage and family therapist and PCC professional clinical counselor, educational psychologist. Each has its own educational requirements which ususally is a masters in counseling psychology, sometimes you need a specific type of degree for educational psychologist or marriage and family therapist that is specifically training you for that role.

You are interested in looking at PhD and PsyD as well it sounds like and I considered this as well, I think a lot of factors come into play in making this choice. For me I’m in my 30s so I didn’t want to spend another 5 years in school earning a PhD or PsyD.and then all the hours you need of experience after that before you get licensed. If I was in my early 20s I would probably go for a PhD in clinical psychology, and if I wanted to work with kids I would focus on programs that offered an emphasis on child psych. What you must remember though is that these are some of the most competitive programs in the country. So you will need a very high GPA, you will need a great deal of research experience in undergrad, and you will need recommendations. Not to say it isn’t worth a shot, because it is, but be prepared.

If you go for a masters level program it will be a bit easier to get in most likely, you wont be expected to have tons of research experience because masters programs that prep you for working as a clinician aren’t training you to be a researcher so much as they are training you to be a provider.

You can still work with kids with an MFT or a PCC or LEP or MSW. If you want to do therapy with kids than I suggest you either do the clinical psych PhD or PsyD (expensive) approach, or do a masters and get licensed. Any of those maters degrees I just mentioned, in California, you can work with kids if you are licensed and provide therapy. However be warned, don’t assume that a “child welfare” focus at an MSW program = therapy with kids, cause it more likely means case management with families in the CW system and brief interventions, often facilitating the separation of families, and all the paperwork that goes along with it. If you are going MSW and want to still do psychology type stuff (I’m a psych undergrad as well) then I say do the mental health focus, get your MSW, and then get your LCSW and simply elect to work with kids, and do not take the bait by getting a child welfare focus MSW. By the way you will hear that technically you can become an LCSW with a child welfare focus and this is true, but good luck finding a supervisor who is licensed and going to guide you as a therapist working with kids. that’s the problem, you get stuck in a big agency, no one is licensed, and you aren’t providing any real clinical services that would count towards LCSW hours. This is why I’m just sayin, if you want to work with kids and do the MSW get the mental health focus, or at least consider what I’m saying.

If I was going to choose another masters level degree, my second choice would be the MFT because that preps you for working with families including kids and you learn some pretty awesome stuff and great therapeutic skills for working with a whole host of issues. At the end of the day however, I think the best masters level degree is the MSW (mental health focus) and then getting the LCSW. If not that, then PhD or PsyD if you can afford it. Good luck!