@Bopper That’s a LizzyM quote and you have it slightly wrong…the correct form is : “you have to be close enough to smell the patients.” Meaning, your “patient contact” volunteering for MEDICAL school has to put the volunteer in very, very close proximity to patients. You can’t be stocking shelves or working in the gift shop. You need to be doing something that puts you in face-to-face contact with patients–like doing patient transport (pushing wheelchairs) or translating for non-English speaking patients or simply holding a sick child’s hand during a procedure.
The EC requirements for medical school and PA school are substantially different.
Medical schools require volunteer clinical experience that includes close patient contact. (Close patient contact mean being of service so close you can smell the patient, but you don’t necessarily need to be providing hands on patient care.)
PA schools require paid hands on patient care experience.
Historically, PA programs originated because combat medics and paramedics wanted to have greater authority/ greater scope of practice to treat patients in the field. Originally, to enter PA school, one needed to have at least 3-5 years experience as a full time paramedic, combat medic or critical care nurse. As the the PA movement expanded, the requirements for previous medical experience have been modified as the education & training portions of the program increased and became more formalized . However, PA education has stayed true to its roots and still requires paid hands on direct patient care experience.
My son is only a Freshman in high school (I feel a little silly starting the game so early) but he recently decided he wants to pursue a healthcare field and is leaning PA after doing some research.
He likes the direct entry option but knows they are very competitive so wants to do everything he can in terms of classes, grades and volunteer work to increase his chances.
We have 2 great programs right in our area: Daemen College & D’Youville College. D’Youville offers a summer camp which lets high school students explore several health-related fields, including PA and NP, so we think that’s a good place to start.
He will probably take AP Psych but I understand that most PA programs will not let you transfer AP science and math classes so looking for advice on whether he should take them. He is a strong math/science students so would probably do well but I believe he can do advanced classes without doing AP.
He is considering a Spanish minor (he’s very good in Spanish and feels this could boost his marketability) but someone here said there may not be room for a minor. D’Youville has a minor called “Spanish for healthcare professionals” so maybe worth inquiring about.
He’d like to stay local but would consider other good programs so he will definitely keep an open mind and I’m glad I found this post. Lots of great info!
@boseownr, I concur with the @thumper1’s original suggestion to look for direct entry programs. PA programs are no doubt hard to get into. I believe the same is true for Nurse Practitioner programs. It might be good for your D to consider both. Has she considered NP as well as PA programs?
ShawD is a Nurse Practitioner. From what I can see when ShawD has applied for jobs, employers treat NPs and PAs as largely interchangeable except for a few positions. Jobs ads typically specify NP/PA. The philosphy of training is different but they seem to be eligible for many of the same jobs. I hadn’t read about the fellowships for PAs that @WayOutWestMom mentioned (although now that I recall, there was one that ShawD mentioned), but that might be a difference between the two training progrms.
ShawD was admitted to a BSN program with automatic admission to the MSN program to become a Family Nurse Practitioner as long as she maintained a B+ average. This took away a tremendous amount of uncertainty. It was also accelerated – by taking classes over the summers, she was able to finish in five years. She really wanted to be out in the working world. She started working at age 23 and loves her job. She does primary care. For her first three years it was for families. She has moved to a new city with her BF and her new job probably will be mostly for millenials, but I don’t know that for a fact.
ShawD was very clear on her path. When she was doing clinical courses in Harvard and Tufts teaching hospitals, doctors approached her several times and said, “You are so smart. You should go to medical school.” She said, “I don’t want to.” She is clear that she a) wanted to have kids and she observed our female MD friends and saw that generally the profession made it hard for mothers (that may have changed); and b) she wanted to work and not be in school forever. So she explicitly chose to be an NP and not an MD.
@bopper No, that’s not the case. For example, transporting patients is not considered patient care. Scribing is not counted by most programs. EMT, MA or CNA are the best ways to accomplish the necessary hours (they have a certificate/training required which deems them more desirable). Minimum is around 1,000 for most programs although some have 2,000 or 2,500 hours as a minimum. I’m not even sure that hours accrued in high school would be considered anyway. Also, it’s not just a check mark … The experience associated with the hours are very much considered and ranked.
The direct entry programs do not have this requirement. They build those experiences into the 5 year program.
I would switch providers in a nano second if one of my physicians ever asked if I was ok having their kid observe. People reveal things to their doctors when the door is closed and their clothes are off that they don’t discuss with their spouse- let alone a teenager.
Y’all are a lot more trusting than I am. I don’t care how many forms a kid has signed- I am not discussing my recent surgery and oozing sutures with a teenager in the room. Nor am I discussing my post-menopausal acne, or anything else a patient might find relevant to a checkup.
Agree with the nursing home suggestion. Especially if it’s not on a floor with complex medical situations, spending time with otherwise healthy Alzheimer’s patients, transporting seniors with mobility issues to and from activities, etc. will not qualify as actual hours for an application, but a kid who finds old people in institutional care hard to be around, is likely not cut out for either NP or PA. Kids have fantasy careers that involve helping cute kids with leukemia, and discovering that your first job might likely be in a large urban hospital doing triage with the medical team on gunshot victims and homeless people with frostbite sometimes is enough of a reality check.
I agree with @blossom. High school kids think all patients are clean, polite, middle class and grateful. The reality is much different.
D1 (then a medical resident at a Ivy hospital) texted to me after a rough day at work: “I just had a patient spit into my mouth. Why didn’t my guidance counselor ever mention this part of the job?”
(BTW, the patient in question wasn’t even her patient. She had just stepped into a room to ask the treating physician if he needed any help.)
Errr… This is why we have students in high school, pre-med in college and surgical residents rotate in our office. Hard to show anyone the reality if people don’t want to participate. But my practice is sports medicine injury /surgery. So maybe embarrassing ankle sprain while training for a marathon but no exposure to medical issues like @blossom was taking about. In 32 years I have always asked if whomever can observe and only had 1 person ask not to. After the fact that same patient met the student while checking out. Talked with her and told my staff when she comes in next week for her follow up to have the student come in… And she did…
I also use discretion on whom not to ask in my practice…
What is great about mentoring (belong to a medical mentoring group) is when the students get accepted or graduate and send a thank you note on their accomplishments years later. Nice having a small impact on someway. I have also had students decide going into research or something else is more to their liking.
I know NP’s who work in ortho surgery and trauma surgery. There are mental health NP specializations along with also peds, and acute care to name a few.
I know many, many students who got their bachelors hoping to get into PA school and it took them years post bachelors to get accepted to a PA program. I know many who gave up and then ended up changing their path and thus their “basic biology” undergrad degree is now not much use.
Nursing school is also very competitive. Often with triple or quadruple the amount of applicants for openings available (just like PA school). However once you get in, you can stay in easily as long as you get a B or higher in all your courses. Once you take your NCLEX exam, you find work as a nurse and have many options and you get paid quite a bit more than a CNA or scribe or even an EMT (where I live an EMT starts at about $15/hr versus the new RN’s $30/hr).
There are online BSN to NP programs where much of the course work can be done online or with hybrid learning so this works well for many working healthcare professionals who want or need to work while obtaining their advanced practitioner degree.
Direct entry PA schools are a great option. However, if you choose to get your undergrad in something else and hope to push your luck for PA school, do have your options open as you may likely have to move to attend PA school and then you are racking up more debt if you arent able to work while attending school.
Talk to PA schools your child may be interested in. Ask for admission criteria and stats about applications versus students admitted spots. Whats their average student age? What do they look for in an ideal applicant? As its so competitive there is often not as many scholarship options so what will be the overall all debt incurred?
There is no bad choice. Both NP’s and PA’s are great. Just like theres good and bad doctors. Its up to each person and how they treat their patients.
I do it based on the context of the visit…I have check ups with my pulmonologist ever 3 months. If they have someone observing I have no problems with that because mostly they are just going to listen to my lungs. The last time I even told the student that they could listen to my lungs if they wanted to.
If it was a case where i had to get more undressed or wanted more privacy, I would just say “not this time” when asked if I could be observed.
I have delivered my kids in teaching hospitals, and have had all of my surgical procedures done in teaching hospitals. I have no issue having a med student listen in and have no issue with a med student ask me questions during rounds, etc. My parents died in teaching hospitals and the family tried to be as helpful as we could be while balancing the need for privacy…
I’m sure my physicians all have lovely teenagers. I just don’t want to see them in an examining room and I think it would be unprofessional of my providers to even ask the question. And I cannot imagine how the physicians staff (NP, nurses, etc) feel about having the “boss’s kid” included in office visits and procedures.
My daughter is finishing her sophomore year at Hofstra University, Long Island. She LOVES it!! It is a true direct entry, once you are in, you just have to maintain a 3.3 GPA overall and 3.3 science GPA to remain in the program. Some schools that are listed on the direct entry PA programs aren’t always a “true” direct entry, so do your due diligence. Most direct entry programs are very small schools, so that can be a pro or a con. My daughter applied to 13 direct entry PA programs and was accepted to 9 programs, denied from 2 (Quinnipiac, Gannon) and withdrew from 2 (Seton Hill, RIT) because she had already made her decision to attend Hofstra. I highly recommend this route if you can find a compatible program. If your daughter really wants big time sports or Greek life, etc, then it may be difficult to find the right fit. You do not need to do tons of patient contact hours if you go this route. If your daughter can shadow a few PA’s , that will be helpful to her application. My daughter was only 17 starting her freshman year, so she wasn’t able to get a medical assistant or CNA certificate and now it just won’t fit in her schedule. When she was 16 she did a two week program in Poland with GAP medics and that was amazing. On her first day she was in the OR observing a pediatric brain surgery. That program has changed, so not sure if that is still available. It gave her a lot to write about for her application essays!
Other things to consider would be the curriculum and timeline. Some programs have you taking courses for 3 of the summers. At Quinnipiac you would get your EMT certificate and they had some great elective courses. My daughter was able to transfer a lot of dual credits to Hofstra, which has allowed her to do a minor and bumps her up for class and housing registrations. One program would accept 140 PA students, but only 75 would graduate. Just ask lots of questions at the info sessions! Good luck in your journey!
The schools she applied to:
Hofstra
Duquesne
Quinnipiac
Gannon
St. Francis, PA
Seton Hill
Chatham
RIT
DeSales
Valparaiso
Wagner
Kings
Phila U/Jefferson
@AmyIzzy It is wonderful that your son already knows that he wants to be a PA! I personally would recommend that he take the most rigorous high school schedule that his school offers. (AP calc, chem, bio and stats for sure) While it would be nice to get credit for AP courses, keep in mind that they will likely better prepare him for his college courses. (eg, my daughter got a 4 on AP calc, but she still had to take the course at Hofstra. It was an easy A for her because of her high school AP class). Taking and scoring well on AP classes will definitely boost his application, even if the credits don’t transfer. He can fill in his schedule with with AP psych, history, English, etc in hopes to transfer those scores which will help make space for a minor. I think a Spanish minor will go a long way in the healthcare field.
Definitely volunteer and shadow, it doesn’t have to be a zillion hours. A leadership position in a school club is also a plus.
Good luck in your college search!
@KGP1988 thank you so much for that information! Assuming we are back to “normal” by the summer after the COVID-19 restrictions, my son plans to take a camp at D’Youville College in Buffalo which explores several health care fields (including nursing, nurse practitioner, PT, Chiropractic Care, Pharmacy, PA, etc.) but he’s definitely leaning PA at this point. Glad he is focused early since there are definitely some things he should consider to help give him an edge throughout high school moving forward. Sounds like your daughter found a great program at Hofstra. It’s a school we will likely consider. Can you share her stats (GPA/SAT scores) just to give me a sense of acceptance standards since she obviously did great getting into most schools. Was there anything she would say is the biggest factor (a strong interview, for example) or more of a combination where the colleges want a well-rounded student? You can respond here or message me. I really appreciate your feedback and advice. Stay safe & well.
@AmyIzzy I think the camp is a great idea! I think well rounded is important, but definitely need a decent SAT/GPA. My daughter played three sports; NHS; a few service clubs at school (but not a huge amount of volunteer hours as sports and academics kept her busy); 3.89 GPA (5 AP classes and rest honors except for a few electives); SAT 1420 (680 verbal 740 math); class rank was 7/160; public high school; a few awards; She interviewed at DeSales and Wagner and declined interview at RIT, so I would say the interview can be very important at those schools; Every school had their own way of doing things, some accept you to the school and give you the merit scholarship info early and then you do an additional PA application and some, like RIT, didn’t give you any scholarship/acceptance info until very late. I recommend applying as early as possible, work on the college essays during the summer before senior year as some applications open August 1st. My daughter wasn’t quite that early, but I think most of her apps were in by Oct 1st. I do remember Seton Hill recommended apps be submitted by Sept 15th. Also, Elizabethtown College has a new PA program.
@KGP1988 I really appreciate this information and your perspective.
He is a competitive gymnast (approaching level 9 next year) so that keeps him very busy (about 16 hours/week.) He purposely didn’t join clubs this year as he wanted to focus on strong grades and has maintained a 96% average (with advanced classes) so I think he’s on the right track there. He is a good test taker so hoping his SAT scores will be solid, although not sure he can slay them as well as your daughter. Wow-impressive. He does plan to join some clubs, volunteer (maybe get a job in a nursing home or hospital if an opportunity presents itself) and apply for NHS in the coming years before college so hopefully this will give him an edge.
Is it common to apply to more than 10 colleges for PA? My daughter is a Freshman in college taking a totally different path. She applied to about 10 colleges in the music/ performance area which also required much travel and auditions so she had to apply early and I think she had her essays done by September 1st, so I’ll be sure he takes the same initiative of being organized and prompt.
When do interviews for PA generally take place? Are all applicants granted an interview? Aside from financial aid, did you find most schools offer decent merit awards? My son told me he heard that he could get some or all college paid for if he commits to working in an at-risk area for a certain amount of time after college, so he’d consider that and would hope to work in an area that requires Spanish so he can utilize his language skills.
Did you visit most colleges before applying? Do they usually have specialized tours/info sessions for the health care fields/PA or just general tours?
Sorry for all the additional questions. Just trying to be proactive. Thanks for the guidance and others can chime in too with any personal experience.
Thanks for the info. This school was not on our radar. Looking at their website, it appears as though to maintain candidacy to move forward in the PA portion one must have a 3.5 GPA (with 3.3 in science). This seems to be much higher than other schools. Do you happen to know offhand how many students in the 5 year accelerated program are not offered acceptance to the PA portion based on GPA? Also, is there a lot of support to help students succeed? My D is very capable, but I don’t want to set her up to fail by having her go to a 5 yr BS/MS program where only half of the students make it to the MS part. Thanks for ANY advice you can provide!
@DOTexe Sorry, I really don’t have that info. I suggest calling Detroit Mercy and asking. My D’s class did have quite a few who transferred out, but the classes before and after hers only had a few that left the program.
There seemed to be plenty of support available Lots of tutoring. Classes are small enough that the professors know the students