<p>I know that Williams has one of if not the best physics departments among liberal arts colleges. However, I was wondering how they (Williams particularly) compare to schools like U of Chicago, Cornell, Cal Tech, MIT, Harvey Mudd, Princeton, Stanford, etc as far as physics is concerned. I've heard that Williams does an excellent job of getting students into top grad schools, but obviously they're smaller than counterparts so would you have the same opportunity to take advanced courses?</p>
<p>In general, no, you may not get the same opportunity to take advanced or specialized science courses at LACs as you do at large universities. The LAC dept. will be smaller, and there will be fewer faculty and fewer courses to choose from.</p>
<p>Is this a problem? It might be limiting, if your science education stops at the bachelor’s level. But it won’t be a problem if you go to on to grad school – and if you seriously plan a career in science, then you need to go on to grad school. </p>
<p>Science graduate programs aren’t actually too concerned if you studied advanced topics or worked on advanced research as an undergraduate. That’s because the grad school process is expected to soon correct any deficiencies in these respects. Advanced topics and research is what grad school is all about.</p>
<p>So what do grad schools care about? First, they want students who have mastered the fundamentals, because they don’t to waste time reviewing concepts that should have been learned in college. LAC graduates, in general, excel at the fundamentals. At research universities, teaching fundamental principles to undergraduates is about the lowest priority item in the department; the responsibility is typically shunted off to TAs. The research universities like to get LAC graduates in their advanced degree programs, because they know perfectly well that the LACs put more effort into preparing undergrads than they do.</p>
<p>Grad schools also want to get students who have experience working closely with professors. LACs typically provide excellent opportunities to do this; there are no grad students, so professors are forced to recruit undergraduates if they want assistance. LAC students generally work on less advanced research than university students – but they often take on more responsibility for the research that does occur, and that actually impresses grad schools more. </p>
<p>Williams is noted for its success in winning [Apker</a> Awards](<a href=“http://www.aps.org/programs/honors/awards/apker.cfm]Apker”>LeRoy Apker Award | American Physical Society), a national prize given for undergraduate research in physics. I haven’t tallied them up, but I suspect that Williams has at claimed at least as many, if not more, than any of the other schools on your list.</p>
<p>Williams physics is simply astounding. Yes, Williams has the most (4) not only of that group, but of ALL colleges and universities (it should be noted there are two different apker awards given to the best student from a phd granting institution and a LAC). You should also check out where all the professors went for their Ph.Ds…again astounding.</p>
<p>I am not normally one to advocate “fit,” but Williams (or any other LAC for science) will have fewer professors so you may not find someone with your utmost specific interest, but when a professor’s interest align with yours, it is likely going to be better than a fit at any other possible combination at a university at the undergrad level. And regardless of how interested you are in pursing his or her type of research down the line (if you are considering grad school), you will still have the research experience and a personal connection with a professor that will write you a great recommendation even if you want to pursue something else.</p>
<p>Not to pirate another thread but how many physics courses can be taken in 4 years at Williams in light of the overall requirements?</p>
<p>As far as going to university versus LAC it seems that often the professors at the universities are more concerned about doing research than teaching. For me having a TA who doesn’t know how to teach isn’t an advantage.</p>
<p>I went to LAC where i was able to visit my professors during both posted office hours and otherwise. You might not see that with professors at universities. Even when I went on to get my master’s degree, it wasn’t unusual for the professor to be away at some conderence or seminar and have the RA fill in. The RA didn’t really care about teaching and just relayed the assignements.</p>
<p>I have a daughter who was accepted at both univerities and colleges beside Williams. She has decided that she wants to be member of the class of 2013 because of the smaller classes. She enjoyed visiting classes where there was great interaction between the professor and the students. She didn’t see this at the large universities.</p>
<p>As far as course as concerned this can be made up by having special courses. My undergraduate transcript has many SPECIAL SEMINAR listed where the department provided courses that weren’t normally taught.</p>
<p>Theoretically… 20.</p>
<p>When looking at the number of physic courses, one has to also consider that many have prerequisites. </p>
<p>The basic set of courses for the major are sequential, which is probably not that different from physics depts. elsewhere, whether LAC or university. This sequence can take 3-4 years, depending on which course a student places into at the beginning. </p>
<p>Courses that physics majors might take apart from this sequence typically have a course toward the end of the sequence, like quantum, as a prerequisite.</p>
<p>So you are basically saying that Williams or another liberal arts school’s lack of specialized/advanced is offset by the fact that their students have such a strong grasp of the fundamentals? While I think it’s imperative to understand the fundamentals well wouldn’t you be at a disadvantage in grad school because you haven’t advanced courses? I heard that top grad schools expect you to have taken a few grad level courses. But then again Williams does seem to do a great job of grad school placement!<br>
Lastly, after looking at the research being done by the faculty I was a little disappointed because none of their professors “specialize” or research my particular interests - is this something that can wait until grad school?</p>
<p>It depends on what you want. LACs are not about a strict vocational program or specialization immediately.</p>
<p>In the British system you matriculate into your major and study nothing else.</p>
<p>The liberal arts education is at the opposite pole. It offers a broad education.</p>
<p>Many students discover more about themselves and change majors. LAC’s are a great place to do this.</p>
<p>For a very advanced math student perhaps the research being conducted by professors and the availability of very specialized courses is mandatory.</p>
<p>I don’t know. Both my children changed their majors in college so I am pleased that they didn’t choose their school solely by the major they thought they’d pursue.</p>
<p>However, once thing to consider is that among Nobelist many of them have won their medals for work outside their own fields. They thought outside the box.</p>
<p>I agree that mastering the fundamentals does not impress the grad schools and they will want you to have taken graduate courses and perform well in them, IF they are available to you. </p>
<p>As I said before, at a LAC, you will get to do real research with a professor and actually do more (but not excluding) than the mindless grunt work that most undergraduates do. This is why the physics dept does so well in grad placement. Even if the work you do is not your specific interest, you will be able to work with a professor and provided that you want to go to grad school, you can always move over to your true research interests there and given Williams’ track record, it will probably be a very good one. For your first 2 years as a grad student you are still taking classes anyway, so it is not in any way like that if you do not take a certain grad course as an undergrad that you will be behind your grad peers when everyone starts being separated and are assigned thesis advisors.</p>
<p>If you plan to go to science grad school, then you want to show BOTH mastery of the fundamentals AND ability to pursue advanced study and research. </p>
<p>At a LAC, the fundamentals are well covered. One reason that grad school placement is high at LACs is that standardized placement tests, like the Physics GRE, necessarily focus on universally-studied fundamentals. LAC grads tend to do unusually well on such tests.</p>
<p>LAC students who plan to go on to science grad schools typically do a bachelor’s thesis with a cooperating professor (the professors need the help, since there are no grad students). A bachelor’s thesis from a top LAC like Williams will generally demonstrate advanced study and research ability to any grad school’s satisfaction. More than one Williams grad has heard that his bachelor’s thesis would have qualified as a master’s thesis at another university. </p>
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<p>Taking graduate level courses as an undergraduate isn’t an option at a LAC, but in my experience it doesn’t necessarily provide a head start in grad school anyway. Prof. X, the famous authority on Symbolic Quantum Biochemistry, will not be inclined to excuse you from his Concepts in Symbolic Quantum Biochemistry class, just because you already studied SQB at some other institution as an undergraduate with some lesser prof who doesn’t really grasp SQB at all. No, as a grad student you definitely need to take a “real” SQB class, i.e. one taught by Prof. X., using Prof. X’s textbook. Otherwise there is no assurance that you properly understand SQB (or at least that’s how Prof. X sees it).</p>
<p>Another thing to consider with Williams is that it also has an exceptional mathematics department where one could take additional courses. A few courses are listed under both departments. I’ve also heard that some students who start with the intention of majoring in physics switch to mathematics. </p>
<p>The larger issue, if you’re at the stage of applying, is whether you’d prefer to spend 4 years at a LAC or university. I think the hard part is finding LACs with exceptional physics departments. If you’re uncertain, then apply to both. By the time you have acceptances in hand, your preference might have changed (after all it will be nearly a year between applying & attending) & other variables, such as money & location, might also be important at that point.</p>
<p>When graduate schools look at transcripts & recommendations, they want to see strong evidence of excellence & potential. While you’re an undergraduate is when to put your energy into preparing for advanced study. Focus your energy now on finding places that you think you’ll be happy getting the most from the college, in physics & other interests.</p>
<p>Lastly, it’s possible to do research over a summer elsewhere. I read of a Williams student who was at one of the UChicago affiliated labs over a summer.</p>
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<p>The LACs are indeed very good at teaching scientific fundamentals, but I have actually found that students at liberal arts colleges (and at other excellent schools, like Harvard, Caltech, etc…) often do not do as well on the Physics GRE. The main reason is not because they are less prepared, but because the Physics GRE is 100 very artificial questions in a time crunched 3 hour period. Good physics programs will cultivate an appreciation for deep thinking, reflection, taking time to write out and communicate the thought process of results, etc… This is very much not what the Physics GRE measures and so in general many reports I have heard indicate that students from excellent physics programs (including many LACs) do not do as well on this exam.</p>
<p>If you’re a Williams physics major planning to go further into physics at the graduate level, or any other science-based program, for that matter, you are encouraged to take the 400-level tutorials in Electricity and Magnetism, Classical Mechanics and Applications of Quantum Mechanics. These are really intense courses that thoroughly prepare you for graduate school. You basically work through whole texts in these areas (Griffiths, Griffiths, and the like). The basic fundamentals sequence is similar at all schools, be they LAC or university. The physics major at Williams is quite intense and a large percentage of majors do write theses in their senior year. Even if they don’t, most, if not all, physics majors acquire summer research experience at some point. So yes, you’re schooled in the fundamentals, but there are opportunities to go further in the three areas I mentioned above. There are also classes on “Gravity”, “Protecting Information” and “Materials Science/Chemistry”, all of which beyond the regular sequence of classes that lasts only 3 years. In fact, 10 courses are required for the major, so majors usually end up taking at least one tutorial (if not all) and a bunch of the electives.</p>