<p>To work as an associate at Best Buy they prefer you have two years of college. That says something as equally bad about our higher education system as it does about our economy. And it is an ominous message for us all.</p>
<p>Engineerhead, you are insulting ever plumber and electrician, many of whom out earn the average engineer. Not everyone needs to go to college to make a good living or enjoy what they do.</p>
<p>^ That is false. They certainly do not “prefer” (at least not truly. they may write so on an application if that’s what you’re hinting at) 2 years of college to be a simple associate. Is it possible that you meant a specific position within Best Buy?</p>
<p>EDIT: Pointing to toblin’s post.</p>
<p>Redroses, I did not say anything of that sort. However, just to play devil’s advocate here, could you please tell me whether you think most plumbers and electricians knew that that was the job that intrigued them the most, and therefore sought out after it the moment they realized it - whether they realized it graduating high school or college or neither? Tell me if you think that is their dream job and fits their individual personality (i.e. personality of general engineers is highly valuing intelligence/scientific inquiry/theory/logistical consistency)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>False. Totally misleading and untrue statistic.</p>
<p>I pose the following question to this board: Is one who graduates with a weak GPA (under 3.6), retrospectively, not college material?</p>
<p>How many of you have actually attended college? (parents are excluded in this). I started taking classes at our local university the summer before my junior year and within two semesters I noticed a difference between myself and my high school classmates. A college education isn’t just about the facts you learn, its about how it changes you. You think differently, you see the world differently. In high school we always complain “When am I ever going to use this in real life?” our teachers foolishly try to persuade us that many careers involve English/math/chemistry/insert hated subject here. In reality, its not about our careers, its that as Democratic Republic we need an educated populace who are voting. That way when voting for nuclear power shows up, that physics class you took for general education requirement helps you know what your talking about instead of “Yes! Nuclear Power! Safe for the environment. Go! Go!” or “No! one misplaced rock and the whole thing blows!”</p>
<p>This is why Best Buy, and many others, want employees to have two year degrees. Just because the degree won’t help your job directly, it can help indirectly by improving your problem solving skills and overall intelligence.</p>
<p>Do you think all of the college degreed mail carriers the article mentions have their dream job? What about the vast majority of those who started out as pre meds who never got to med school? Those who attended law schools not on the HYS level who can’t get a paralegal job? Business school graduates cold calling you with penny stock offers?</p>
<p>What I do think is that if the average student at a second tier college knew what his post graduation options would be, a career as a skilled workman making six figures with no college loans would be his choice.</p>
<p>But America has come to think like you EngineerHead–that college benefits all. It clearly hasn’t which is why research is starting to examine the fallacy.</p>
<p>Let’s not jump to the extreme opposite conclusion either, guys. Remember, vocational and technical educations aren’t free either, and it’s common for students to rack up debt for those almost the same levels as for 4-year colleges. The problem with this thinking is that there is a magic bullet; an education and career plan that will give everyone six figures, no debt, a secure job, and an affluent lifestyle. There’s no such animal. We all know about the kids who go into massive debt for law school and end up not being able to find a job, but there are also kids (and older adults, too) who go $30,000 into debt at some for-profit auto body training shop and end up not being able to find a job in that either. We need to stop thinking of 4-year colleges, community colleges, trade and vocational schools as being some sort of panacea for all financial woes.</p>
<p>In my area, any kid who is bright and has a good work ethic can easily find free training. Many of the paid for tech programs are taking advantage of those who think it’s college…</p>
<p>That’s very nice for your area, but in my area, many people often come across technical and vocational training programs that cost at least some amount of money. This is actually something that seems to target older adults rather than 18-year old kids, at least in my experience. They’re not stupid enough to think that a 9-month course is the same thing as a 4-year old college, but they are convinced by the flashy advertising and wildly-exaggerated claims (“98% job placement rate!!!” – virtually identical in style to many 4-year college adverts, in fact!) that this is the magic bullet that can revitalize their struggling careers. These programs are often very good, but they’re not magic. Just because you’ve trained in something that is in high-demand doesn’t mean you automatically deserve a great job. People get that you have a lot of unemployed lawyers, but despite the careless media attention there are other people in America who are struggling besides white collar workers. During this recession, independent truck drivers (for example) have been devastated by underemployment and unemployment 2 to 3x the national average. Construction workers are in the same boat too; you have unemployment triple the national average, with 30 job-seekers for every opening. What’s worse is that many of these jobs simply aren’t coming back; some of them have been outsourced (yes, you actually can outsource construction, manufacturing, and repair jobs!), others have been automated, and many employers are finding that they can do without many of them, especially secretarial and clerical jobs.</p>
<p>A vocational education is perfectly honorable, and as RedRoses said it can be free too to talented people. But please, can we stop pretending that it’s possible to totally proof yourself against economic downturns?</p>
<p>Julliet,</p>
<p>You posted how much a 100,000 debt costs over 25 years, but did not say what interest rate you assumed. I use 7.0%, based on my memory of historical trends. This is about a $245,000 debt repayment:</p>
<p>Summary</p>
<p>Principal borrowed: $100000.00
Annual Payments: 12 Total Payments: 301 (25.08 years)
Annual interest rate: 7.00% Periodic interest rate: 0.5833%
Regular Payment amount: $644.30 Final Balloon Payment: $50907.87
Minimum amortizing payment for this Principal and Interest rate: $583.34</p>
<p>The following results are estimates which do not account for values being rounded to the nearest cent.</p>
<p>Total Repaid: $244197.87
Total Interest Paid: $144197.87
Interest as percentage of Principal: 144.198%</p>
<hr>
<p>Second, I find the use of ‘average’ college return a poor argument, since debt amount does not follow the same distribution as return. An extreme example of this fallacy is the slot machine: on average, people only spend a couple percent of the money they take into a casino – but this is because of the rare high payout. The middle 25 - 75% are faring much worse. Remove the top 5% of wage earners with college degrees, and see what you think of the college bargain for the other 95%. Also remember that the statistics you are quoting have a very strong selection bias already built in: college dropouts are not counted, but they keep the debt burden.</p>
<p>Colleges are changing. Our local flagship teaches a <em>lot</em> of vocational topics. I just wonder if college pricing can be reasonably applied to vocational training in a rational environment. Upfront I’ll admit that I do not consider diploma whoring rational.</p>
<p>A look at what happens to the HS student who gambles and loses in the college game as a drop-out is not pretty: Based on 7% apr debt interest and a principal of $100,000, they have a debt repayment during their entire 25 year working career of about $9,000 a year. This is enough to insure the very large majority of this cohort are living at poverty level till they die.</p>
<p>This is <em>half</em> of new college matriculants.</p>
<p>Redroses, it’s simple. Would you or would you not recommend to someone close to you who doesn’t exactly know what he wants to do with his life but he’s pretty damn sure he doesn’t want to be a sales manager of Nautica or plumber or whatever to not go to college?</p>
<p>Two take-away points for the HS’r considering their options:</p>
<ol>
<li>Party schools are <em>really</em> expensive. Do you really want to pay for the rest of your life for a bit of club-med now ?</li>
<li>Game the question of whether to go to college, by realistically estimating chances of success.</li>
</ol>
<p>college is a 4 year coma. A pain for the soul, a glory for the foul</p>
<p>I can’t believe no one has made the analogy that we are sitting on the LIFE gameboard, about to start, and deciding weather to go the college or work route? Nobody?</p>
<p>I kinda think Lockheed Martin is going to want my son to actually have his degree in aerospace engineering before letting him near a raptor. Y’think?</p>
<p>well… I told my parents this and now I’m going to flip burgers at MCDonald’s. This article has been so life-saving, and has inspired me to drop-out right away!</p>
<p>^ Concratulation MacD. I hope they spelled your name right on your birth certificate MacDee</p>
<p>EngineerHead, absolutely. If I felt they were among the many destined for an expensive, useless degree and would be better suited to a trade. I live in Silicon Valley where a lot of engineers wish they were plumbers and made their income.</p>
<p>I think all the flippancy in this thread is distracting from the main issue…are HS kids/parents truly considering all of the options and planning a realistic future for their kids based on their individual circumstances, talents, and interests? The original article is simply advocating for that and I agree, based on statistical evidence and personal observations as a HR manager and small business owner, that too many kids are going straight from high school to college with almost no thought of the alternatives. </p>
<p>Clearly, a fair number of students would greatly benefit from a gap year (or two) to improve their chances of graduating on time simply because they will be more mature and have a clearer idea of what their strengths, weaknesses, and career interests may be. Many with “hands on” aptitude would be better advised to start small, with an AAS/AOS, and use those skills to support themselves until/unless they need a higher level degree (the electrician to engineer scenario) which is often employer-funded to fill a need. Most employers are fairly quick to spot, and promote, those who have potential even if it means making a significant investment in them. </p>
<p>The “one size fits all” approach of everyone who has a B average or better should go to college is a problem for everyone except the colleges! We NEED smart, rational people in the trades, in retail management, in our hospitals, on our farms, and in small and large businesses and there are many ways to be an “educated person” without spending a small fortune on watered-down, expensive BA/BS degrees. We don’t need parents shortchanging their retirement savings to send junior to college and we certainly don’t need more people entering the workforce with high salary demands coupled with mediocre gpa’s, minimal work ethic/experience, and huge student loans…just my $.02!</p>