<p>This is dangerous advice.</p>
<p>I just read the NYT article, and it is quite a bit more multi-faceted than the comments here might lead one to conclude. In particular, the article notes that the stats for students in the lower-most 25% of their HS grad class completing a 4-yr degree is horrendous. This should come as no surprise, and anyone who is telling such students that the answer for them can only be a Bachelors degree are doing these students a disservice. The article also notes that only about half of everyone who starts out towards a 4-yr degree actually finish it. This should not necessarily be thought of as a failure, as much as students realizing that this is simply not the best path for them.</p>
<p>I work at a community college, where the overwhelming number of entering students profess their goal to be transferring to a 4-yr institution. The majority of those students never reach that goal, but along the way, they make other decisions that are based on knowledge they acquired along the way. Many of those students decide that an Associates degree is sufficient. Many of those students decide that a college degree of any sort will not work for them. And, a large number of those students decide to instead pursue a professional-technical degree or certificate that will presumably lead toward a job that pays a living wage. Every year, we turn out welders, medical assistants, cosmetologists, nurses and nursing aides, radiological technicians, etc. And, although there is a cost to those degrees and certificates, they are far less than the cost of most private programs. The Obama administration recognizes this and is pursuing a community college initiative to promote these programs that lead to job skills in less than 2 years.</p>
<p>To be sure, there are plenty of 4-yr graduates out there who hold jobs that do not seem commensurate with their education, and there are plenty of grads who might reconsider whether or not the cost of that degree was justified in comparison to their vocation. Still, I think it is important to remember that college grads usually learn more than how to hold a particular job slot. They presumably learned how to think critically and communicate effectively, which goes a long way toward being a meaningful and contributing citizen. </p>
<p>It is fair to question if the cost of a 4-year degree is worth it for many people, but it is also important to realize that at least a little post-secondary academic experience can also be important.</p>
<p>It is scary how many Americans earnestly believe college is the answer for all. As noted above, these people are not looking at the facts or the outcome for many college grads over the last two decades. The outcome going forward in a global economy will get much worse for the average 4 year degree holder.</p>
<p>Refocusing on the idea that each student needs to look at a number of post high school educational and employment opportunities, I agree one size does not fit all. S1 went to CC for a year while keeping his part time job he started in HS. At this point he is honestly unsure if he wants to go back in the fall. We are not going to insist that he go if he doesn’t want to right now. He must pay a nominal rent, he must have a career path at his place of employment. Forty hours is hard to get with the economy, we understand this. Anything less than the 40hrs he must offer in community service. The idea is to keep forward motion, always evaluating ‘am I meeting personal goals?’. For each child this is going to be different.
Son2 is a totally different child. He will be totally ready for college. Has known for quite some time what he wants to study. He has a much different personality and maturity factor. Son3 is 15 and it is frankly just too early to tell with him.
I would not have bought into this thought process four years ago, insisting that ALL of my boys MUST earn a four year degree. Watching them develop at different rates, closer to graduation, we thought do we really want to gamble $25k on S1 when he’s just not sure about school. We are ALL glad he went to CC, he kept the job and still has that while he decides where to go next.</p>
<p>sk8rmom: I couldn’t have said it any better. I think everyone should be educated and trained in their field of interest, but not every field of interest requires a traditional college degree. </p>
<p>Our society is misleading our kids and doing a disservice to everyone as a whole by advocating that traditional college is the only way to go. We should all think about this the next time we wonder why we don’t have enough skilled tradesmen.</p>
<p>I don’t think anyone is saying that every student needs to look at a range of colleges. There are clearly many who are and absolutely should be college bound. But there are many going because it’s what society suggests they should do who will not do well in college and it will not yield them a sustaining career that uses the degree.</p>
<p>It’s funny people are actually arguing on this thread when we all know we are going to college anyway.
Ask any adult, poor or rich, who went to college, if they would take back their college experience if it might have helped them economically, and guarantee all would say no. College is essential in shaping young adults into real adults.</p>
<p>Everyone should become entrepreneurs and innovate!</p>
<p>Sam, don’t know what you read but the newspapers are filled with stories about people defaulting on student loans who plainly articulate that they got no marketable skills in college and wish they had not wasted the time and monet.</p>
<p>Also, the college experience is by an large an affluent experience. Sure, some poor kids are in on it these days, but the average student;s experience is one of commuting to a community college or state school.</p>
<p>Essential? That’s just silly.</p>
<p>The current state of the economy has many people evaluating their priorities and shifting where their dollars are going. Families that had saved money for college may have lost a significant amount if it was invested. Families that had significant equity in their homes and had planned on pulling on a home equity loan have probably lost a great deal of available funds. Families that intended on taking loans may have taken pay cuts and can no longer afford the loan payments. These are not families that are well off and money is of no concern, neither are these families that are just getting by and their students qualify for financial aid due to low EFC. I am talking about the upper-middle class families that are smack in the middle of the donut hole of college expenses. Too expensive to cut a check without a blink, but make too much to get decent financial aid.</p>
<p>So many students in my sons graduating class last year that had intended on going to university are at community college. This will work out well for many. With a good GPA they can transfer into almost any state school, including UVa or Wm & Mry. Students that were considering $50k/year private educations are instate instead. There has been a massive shift in how we are viewing the ‘investment’ of college.</p>
<p>I can’t help but think that this will have the ultimate effect of a number of students choosing careers that do not require four year degrees, but are a better fit for them. Families are taking pause before automatically sending their students off at 18.</p>
<p>BI, how do you define ‘upper-middle’ class ?</p>
<p>College is about learning, getting experience (research and internships), and having fun.</p>
<p>If you don’t want to learn, and don’t want to do research, then I guess college wouldn’t be for you. For everyone else, college can be a more valuable experience than just trying to improve their employment prospects. </p>
<p>I could definitely not argue that making 30k a year right off the bat makes more sense than going to college for 6-8 years (when the cost is minimal, say 0-10k a yr), and while you aren’t saving up a ton of money, you are investing in human capital, and at least to me that is much more valuable than a head start on a house.</p>
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<p>Summer camp is about learning, getting experience (swim lessons and camping) and having fun. It is actually a terrific experience for lots of kids. But it is a luxury that many cannot afford and parents must weigh the cost/benefit of sending their kids to a range of alternatives from short-term day programs to 7-week overnight camp. It is not the right choice for everyone even though it could be beneficial to some degree for most. There are alternative summer experiences that can enrich a child’s life and learning at a lower cost.</p>
<p>I use this analogy because, although I agree that the college experience is worthwhile beyond the classes, it is not the only way for person to become enriched and experienced in the world. It is a luxury for many and those interested in learning and having new social and cultural experiences can find cheaper alternatives. Becoming an informed, educated, socially adept citizen does not require a college education. It just requires effort and determination in making the most of what is available.</p>
<p>I believe the key to future education is fomenting a stronger self-teaching ethic. We should be instilling kids with the skills and the desire from a young age to learn on their own through all available means–online courses, cultural exchanges, vocational apprenticeships. With the internet revolution, I think more alternatives to expensive college degrees will emerge and all kinds of kids will have lots of options.</p>
<p>“College is essential in shaping young adults into real adults.”</p>
<p>Spare me. Compare the maturity level of ten people who worked for four years after high school with that of ten equivalent people who went to college immediately for four years. The ten people in the workforce will win, hands down. In terms of creating “adults”, college (particularly the colleges favored by most people on CC) is little more than an extension of childhood that often has the side effect of teaching students to be intellectually pretentious.</p>
<p>The problem with not going to college is economic (or the perception of economic). A true story will illustrate this point. Forty years ago, a young woman with a high school diploma took a job as an accounting clerk with a mid-size construction company; when she was promoted, they hired another young woman with similar credentials to take her place. Today, the first woman runs the real estate operation at a major public corporation, and the second woman retired after 20 years after rising to become the CFO of the construction company (which had grown into a $100 million dollar enterprise).</p>
<p>Today, it is highly unlikely that either one of those women would have attained any where near the same success in the business world. Why? Because with so many people going to college, they almost certainly could not have gotten their foot in the door. (One of the latest examples of this phenomenon is the IT field). The irony is that the massive increase in college enrollment has devalued the degrees of those who do graduate; for those seeking a middle class lifestyle (40-60k before benefits) having a marketable trade (carpentry, plumbing, etc.) may now be a more certain route to success. But unless one is a successful entrepreneur, the college degree is the price of entry to the white collar world.</p>
<p>“College is essential in shaping young adults into real adults.”</p>
<p>Spare me. Compare the maturity level of ten people who worked for four years after high school with that of ten equivalent people who went to college immediately for four years. The ten people in the workforce will win, hands down. In terms of creating “adults”, college (particularly the colleges favored by most people on CC) is little more than an extension of childhood that often has the side effect of teaching students to be intellectually pretentious.</p>
<p>The problem with not going to college is economic (or the perception of economic). A true story will illustrate this point. Forty years ago, a young woman with a high school diploma took a job as an accounting clerk with a mid-size construction company; when she was promoted, they hired another young woman with similar credentials to take her place. Today, the first woman runs the real estate operation at a major public corporation, and the second woman retired after 20 years after rising to become the CFO of the construction company (which had grown into a $100 million dollar enterprise).</p>
<p>Today, it is highly unlikely that either one of those women would have attained any where near the same success in the business world. Why? Because with so many people going to college, they almost certainly could not have gotten their foot in the door. (One of the latest examples of this phenomenon is the IT field). The irony is that the massive increase in college enrollment has devalued the degrees of those who do graduate; for those seeking a middle class lifestyle (40-60k before benefits) having a marketable trade (carpentry, plumbing, etc.) may now be a more certain route to success. But unless one is a successful entrepreneur, the college degree is the price of entry to the white collar world.</p>
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<p>Agreed. I hate that they make a bachelor degree as a pre-req for many jobs. We did this to ourselves too. They only wanted college grad cause we made it available for them. So now everyone has to to go college. I wouldn’t mind all this happening if college was free but it is not…</p>
<p>Not everyone has a degree though. Only about 27% of Americans, for instance, actually has a degree from a 4-year college, so you can hardly say that people without college degrees are all unemployed. But I agree with you; too many employers are using college degree requirements as crude “weeding” implements to help them make hiring decisions; it’s gotten worse in this recession, since high levels of job applicants make employers resort to these kinds of requirements even though they’re unnecessary.</p>
<p>I don’t agree with the camp analogy. Camp can benefit every kid but I think the issue here is that college, on the whole, will not benefit every young adult more than the alternatives.</p>
<p>What some just don’t get is that many struggle through college gaining little becaus they think it’s what they are supposed to do. Many learn nothing and leave with no skills.</p>
<p>I didn’t realize until I was a senior in college that what I really wanted to do didn’t require a degree anyway. I also realized around then that there was no benefit in going straight to college rather than waiting until I could be considered an independent for financial aid. I’ll be kicking myself for that one until I’m about 60 and my stupid loans are repaid. </p>
<p>footballmom: 8th grade is WAY too early to be thinking that! If you want to give him a fair chance at becoming college material, don’t let him see that you’re already thinking about writing him off.</p>
<p>The camp analogy really doesn’t hold, because you get experience doing research, internships, and you learn a lot in all of the courses you take.</p>
<p>If the student doesn’t want to pursue an academic interest, then college might not be right for them, but the idea of saving money to not go to college doesn’t make sense to me (if the student really wants to go to college). There is financial aid, scholarships, grants, and the only way to really not be able to afford it is to not plan ahead 4+ years.</p>
<p>I just couldn’t say to a student that they cannot go to college, if that is what they wanted (They were pursuing something they were passionate about), because I didn’t plan ahead financially. My parents wanted me to go to a community college, but the scholarships and FA I got made it cheaper to go to an extremely good university. As long as the student is working hard to do what they want, then if they’re passionate about something they should be able to go to college (It doesn’t have to be there top choice, just somewhere that works for them).</p>
<p>Edit: I don’t completely understand the people who I’ve met who dislike school, and are only going to get a job that they think they will like. I couldn’t imagine someone paying to go to college if they didn’t absolutely love learning and love the academic rigor that college provides, so I guess if a student is in that situation college may not be right for them either.</p>