Plan B: Skip College (New York Times)

Parents Forum
101

<p>A few people always dominate the hot topic threads with their back and forth arguments, and it leaves little room for the rest of us to leave our small interjections without it getting flooded by page long posts.</p>

<p>Instead of arguing as if this were a statistics class, you should just agree that we don’t really know anything about the causation of college degrees and income and leave it at that.</p>

<p>Not going to college has always been an option for people in the States, and it will continue to be, but the fact remains that, unless you learn a trade outside of college (a vocational school eg) you’re going to have a harder time finding a job since the trend is that the number of white collar jobs is increasing and the number of blue collar ones is decreasing. We don’t need more people not going to college.</p>

<p>Besides this, who would trust a nurse without a bachelors degree? Nurses should learn what to do in any kind of situation, and that requires schooling, not a year interning and being exposed to a small number of situations. The world doesn’t rely on apprenticeships anymore either. There’s too much that needs to be learned these days compared to 400 years ago. Bad excuse for an article, the writer probably went to college.</p>

102

<p>It seems to me that I’ve been reading pretty much the same article every year or two for the last 30 years.</p>

103

<p>What reason is that BG? And after you’ve figured out that reason, I would like you to tell it to whoever teenagers are frequenting the Parents Forum, but you need not try to direct it at me. I do not frequently post on this forum at all. In fact, asides from this thread, I don’t post on this forum period. I appreciate your concern, but I do know where I will be in coming years, thank you very much. What does age have to do with anything, age is nothing but a number. I know kids younger than 16 that are more mature than some adults I know. I know kids younger than 16 already in college who are certainly more mature than the other kids in their college classes that are 18+. I will recognize flaws in my argument if they are pointed out with reason and logic. Retracting my words in this thread would not be the first time I have done so and doing so does not make me feel ashamed a single ounce, but the times I have done so, the counter point was reasoned through. Rebuttals need not be aggressive, the only aggression I see are EMM1, Redroses, and you. If I happen to have any aggression, it is only in response to someone calling me out and pointing fingers, not an initiation. </p>

<p>As for everyone else, the only person who truly understood my argument was sk8rmom. Everyone else has twisted my words into what they want to believe I mean. I said that it is a START. Enter college with something in MIND. Rather than going into college clueless, enter college with an idea. The idea could be TOTALLY opposite of what your final decision will be, but IT IS A START; you’re setting goals and giving yourself a sense of direction. IT SHOWS MATURITY by putting your life in your hands instead of putting your life up for grabs, hoping to hit jackpot and reach some kind of epiphany while in college.</p>

104

<p>Another set of “facts”: unemployment rates are also highly correlated with educational attainment. See this Bureau of Labor Statistics summary: [Table</a> A-4. Employment status of the civilian population 25 years and over by educational attainment](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm]Table”>http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm)</p>

<p>Yes, Pandem, as I stated, there are lots of alternative “explanations” for why, on average, having a college education is associated with having a higher income and lower unemployment. But the simplest and most direct (hence Leonhardt’s reference to Occam’s Razor – [Occam’s</a> razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam’s_razor]Occam’s”>Occam's razor - Wikipedia)) is that college matters to individual economic outcomes.</p>

<p>For every individual, the question remains whether, if you have the option of attending and completing college, it’s worth it to do so. I know some cases where it’s not worth it. And I don’t think the data speak for themselves on this. Also they only speak about averages. But they are very suggestive that you should take the opportunity to attend college if you have it or can make it.</p>

105

<p>I know what Occam’s Razor is, and it’s not really relevant. That’s a philosophical principle, not a scientific one. From the page you referenced:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The point is this:</p>

<p>Yes, on average, college graduates make more money than non-grads.
Yes, if you can afford to attend college, please do. Going tens of thousands of dollars in debt is not “affording”.
No, college is not the end-all answer to getting a good job and income. That’s a terrible mentality that this article is talking about.</p>

106

<p>Pandem said “So college graduates make more money on average than non-graduates? What does that prove?”</p>

<p>I was agreeing with you. I am sorry if this did not translate. I’m in the ‘What does that prove?’ camp as well. My questions regarding ‘intelligence’ were a discussion not an aggression.</p>

<p>OCkn13 said “This always happens”</p>

<p>You don’t need anyone’s permission, but feel free to jump into any conversation at any time. I’m sorry if I went over my limit on number of posts in this thread. I think it was a great topic with many viewpoints. I enjoyed everyones thoughts. I did find I need to do better on expressing myself to make sure I get things across more clearly. Always a good lesson!</p>

<p>Peace out.</p>

107

<p>Yeah, sorry but it’s confusing to tell sometimes, and I often get posters mixed up. No hostility was meant, and it’s half my fault for using “intelligence” instead of ambition or some other word.</p>

<p>Your example was good, but it dealt with the extremes (tradesman w/ no college vs. college degree + graduate/law school). The article (and most discussion on this topic) is more about the middle ground; people with non-technical degrees that don’t work in the field they majored in.</p>

108

<p>“Yes, Pandem, as I stated, there are lots of alternative “explanations” for why, on average, having a college education is associated with having a higher income and lower unemployment. But the simplest and most direct (hence Leonhardt’s reference to Occam’s Razor – Occam’s razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is that college matters to individual economic outcomes.”</p>

<p>Occam restated is that parsimony of explanation tends to be correct for statistical reasons. PLease do not confuse this with mixing up association and causation. A good of example Occam in action is explaining the shuttle explosion: although a complex sequence of events occurred, there was only one root cause.</p>

<p>Someone who picks on the wrong component as the problem, or an innocent bystander component that was fried in the reaction is not invoking Occam; they just do not understand the difference between association and causation.</p>

109

<p>Sorry obesechicken, but this looks like it’s going to be a page long post only because I am constantly quoting.</p>

<p>I’m going to list examples of where my words have been twisted, as well as other irrationals, and a few side comments (in ALL seriousness, this is not meant to be aggressive or rude, I honestly mean that):</p>

<p>Pandem:
Irrational as well as twisting my words. Also side comment
“I’m sorry, but the idea that a 18 year old kid can decide what he wants to do as a career is ridiculous.”
– Certainly not what I said. As well, “ridiculous?” What a bold word.</p>

<p>Side comment
“Also, most “personality tests” are bunk and follow the same “one size fits all” mentality.”
– The CC article I posted certainly does not fit this description.</p>

<p>Irrational
“No one knows what they want to do at 18. Suggesting otherwise goes in the face of simple common sense.”
– Suggesting this is already utterly wrong. Is that really common sense? I don’t think it is, if you do please tell me why.</p>

<p>Irrational
“It’s difficult if not downright impossible to be exposed to the variety of fields available by age 18.”
– Surely not. If they tried to do their research, they would find SO many opportunities to explore career choices. They just have to look. Difficult, I may be able to agree with - just as calc-based physics could be deemed difficult. However, for the hardworkers in the physics class, do you think they would say it’s difficult? Then compared with the not-so-hardworkers in the physics class. How you could even think it’s logical to try to reason in, “if not downright impossible” is beyond me.</p>

<p>Side comment
“The world doesn’t fit into little neat boxes, and neither do people.”
– Well gee, thanks for repeating my words.</p>

<p>blueiguana:
Twisting my words
“EngineerHead said “By 18, students can easily, yes I did say easily, figure out what types of jobs are suitable…”
Your theory is the same as a ‘one size fits all’ education path for all that we are trying to get away from.”
– The funny thing is, in my posts prior to this post, I emphasize not that it is a one size fits all, but that specifically it offers a sense of direction and somewhere to start. I even emphasized that where you start may not be where you end, but IT IS SOMETHING.</p>

<p>Redroses:
Side comment
“I don’t think most 18 year olds have a clue yet…”
– I agree, however you fail to explain why that is. What are most 18 year olds busying their time with? For MOST teenagers, if you don’t have a single clue, it’s most likely because you haven’t bothered to find that clue. Not saying that those who don’t have a single clue have not put in their work in trying to find things out, but I’m pointing out an obvious trend.</p>

<p>False
“…including the very high achieving ones I see at my kids’ top 10 colleges.”
– I respectfully disagree. Of the achieving students I know, most of them have a clue, while the remaining few don’t have a single clue - and these students are high achieving students so I would expect they have attempted to do their homework but failed, which points toward my previous comment that it is not absolute. However, again, although it is not absolute, there is a trend that could be noticed.</p>

<p>BusinessGuy:
False
“I also noticed that you’re still in high school.”
– No comment needed.</p>

<p>pwoods:
Side comment
“…does he really believe that 18 year olds, even 20 year olds, can have a real idea of exactly what careers they want?”
– I sure do. Do you really believe that they can’t?</p>

<p>Side comment
“The problem isn’t their personality doesn’t fit with any jobs; it’s simply that it fits with more than one job.”
– You’re furthering my argument with this comment, since this is pretty much what I have already said. Your rebut is actually my support.</p>

<p>obesechicken:
Side comment
“…you’re going to have a harder time finding a job since the trend is that the number of white collar jobs is increasing and the number of blue collar ones is decreasing.”
– This is the basis of many others’ arguments here. That is, companies are unecessarily requiring degrees all over the job market when it is not absolutely necessary.</p>

<p>Side comment
“Besides this, who would trust a nurse without a bachelors degree?”
– Again, their points do not rebut this. Their point, in relation to yours, is to not spend those 4 years getting a BSN just because you needed to choose a degree and are pushed by society to get a degree.</p>

<p>I’m not trying to come off as stubborn and meeting BusinessGuy’s remark (no need for comments saying I am), and I really hope no one takes it as me arguing simply to argue - I am not.</p>

110

<p>

</p>

<p>The article that you’re rebutting against, [The</a> Value of College - Economix Blog - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/17/the-value-of-college-2/]The”>The Value of College - The New York Times), actually addresses this.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Not sure if anyone pointed this out, don’t have time to read every post right now so just throwing this together quickly in case no one has, gotta run (actually haven’t considered the opposing two yet, I will later).</p>

111

<p>EngineerHead said
"BusinessGuy:
False
“I also noticed that you’re still in high school.”
– No comment needed.</p>

<p>EH - For full disclosure…you just noted several days ago about taking the Physics C AP, so you are not being truthful or you are in a situation where you are graduating HS earlier in the season than most schools.
You will be a Freshman at VT in the fall of 2010.</p>

<p>This is a Parents Forum because we want to discuss topics with other parents, not 18-19yos who think they have the world figured out. Students come here to ask for advise now and again but for the most part stay on other parts of the website.</p>

<p>At 57 posts/day you might want to go out into the world and live it a bit before you insult those of us who have.</p>

<p>Yes, when someone is rude I like to find the source so I have a better idea of the context in which the information is coming.</p>

<p>Best of luck at VATech in the fall.</p>

112

<p>I am being truthful and the reason is not because my school has graduated already. This academic year of 09-10’ I have been fully enrolled in a local college. Again, no comment really needed but you pick the best out of me. Please point me to where I’m being clearly and utterly rude. Please, you can be a little more mature, the world does not revolve around you. Anything I point out is not just for your brain but for every other person reading. Debating serves, for me, the sole purpose of the exchange and dispersal of ideas, not the transfer of emotions. Get over it.</p>

<p>As for 57 posts/day, my PRIMARY purpose of joining this forum was to expand my initiation to complete my goal of “read read read and read some more!” as I need to increase my reading comprehension. I felt that being active on a forum would double for increasing my reading comprehension/speed and my writing ability. My activity on this forum PRIMARILY was meant to serve as a supplement to reading scientific articles and other complicated writings that require thought. Being in an area where everyone is debating targets this area well for me. Stop trying to poke insults, no one is insulting you - certainly not me - so you need to calm down.</p>

<p>I don’t need your sarcastic blessing. I would certainly say that although you are a fully grown adult, you are acting more immature than I am.</p>

113

<p>MODERATOR’S NOTE: </p>

<p>Please read the forum Terms of Service (linked to from my signature, shown on this post) for a reminder of the etiquette we should all show one another as we post here. Posts that disagree with my ideas (or yours) are often a good thing, as they provide a learning opportunity. We each can treat one another as adults and thoughtful people, whatever the other person’s age. It is important to remember that each online discussion here has many onlookers besides the people who are posting replies.</p>

114

<p>quick question </p>

<p>if becoming an electrician or plumber is such an ideal choice, why do not all those who do not go to college become electricians or plumbers?</p>

<p>My vague impression is that lots of those with no college do NOT end up in those fields. Now it could be lack of initiative, etc, that would also mean college (including comm college) isn’t really a choice either. Or it could be not everyone has the ability or inclination to succeed in those fields. But for some reason or another, there are loads of HS grads who do not end up in the most lucrative non-college fields. </p>

<p>Please explain.</p>

115

<p>

</p>

<p>I’m probably less aware of what’s involved in becoming an electrician or a plumber than I’m aware of how to graduate from college. Maybe a lot of people just aren’t in circles such that they learn about those careers, and I don’t think there is any website like Skilled Trades Confidential to help out people who don’t know about these things by personal acquaintance.</p>

116

<p>plumbing and electricians work isn’t exactly obscure.</p>

117

<p>"Almost every person employed as a plumber, pipefitter, pipelayer, or steamfitter completes some form of formal apprenticeship. A lot of apprenticeships are sponsored by boards that are made up of regional representatives of the United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipefitting Industry of the United States and Canada, and regional employers who are often affiliated with the Mechanical Contractors Association of America, the National Fire Sprinkler Association, or the National Association of Plumbing, Heating, and Cooling Contractors.</p>

<p>Aside from those provided by unions, other training programs are sponsored by regional branches of the Associated Builders and Contractors, the American Fire Sprinkler Association, or the Home Builders’ Institute of the National Association of Home Builders.</p>

<p>Most apprenticeships last from four to five years. They include 144 hours of coursework in reading specifications, drafting, sketching, math, practical science, safety procedures, regulations that govern plumbing, and building codes"</p>

118

<p>[How</a> hard is it to become an electrician?](<a href=“http://masterslic.tripod.com/FAQ-2/1.html]How”>How hard is it to become an electrician?)</p>

<p>I think the ease of getting into an apprenticeship for the most lucrative trades is perhaps exaggerated.</p>

119

<p>Engineer, let me exlain why most 18 year olds don’t have a clue: It’s because they are 18.</p>

<p>Only the most affluent, connected kids in major cities would have the opportunity for exposure to most elite careers and even these kids have not gotten it by 18. True exposure requires internships and job opportunities–time spent with peope in the career, not reading and researching and thinking they can choose by personality type.</p>

<p>Most engineering students, along with others, don’t have a realistic view of what the average engineer does when they start college. How many kids do we all know who quickly abandoned career choices after one internship? These opportunities are as valuable for teaching you what you don’t want to do as they are for teaching you what you do want.</p>

120

<p>I have had students, who are close to 18, tell me they want to be an engineer because they are really good at AutoCad or they want to be a lawyer because they love to argue. I also hear some very idealistic career goals by students who do not even remotely show any talents or skills that would indicate they are going to be successful in their “future career” and I know students who show every promise in the world of successfully pursuing particular careers and then take a 180 degree turn after high school. I think 18 is very young for most people to know what they want to do, but then there are those like my husband who knew in 7th grade he wanted to become an agricultural engineer and at 46 he is still enjoying his chosen profession.</p>