<p>^^EngineerHead said “By 18, students can easily, yes I did say easily, figure out what types of jobs are suitable…”
Your theory is the same as a ‘one size fits all’ education path for all that we are trying to get away from.</p>
<p>My thought was and continues to be:
“ALL options of education should be evaluated for students based on their interests, needs, maturity level, and the families ability to finance the education.”</p>
<p>At 18 student can not be put in neat little boxes. The often don’t know what they want to do. For the ease of our conversation, and to show the different avenues available there are…
A- Students who really, honestly know what they want to do - four year university
B- Students who don’t know what they want to study (LA’s) but are a committed students- four year university that chooses major after two years if $ allows, or 2 years at community college that will give them their solid start to transfer to university if they have done well.
C- Students who are so-so about school. CC for a few classes with a part time job to see how it goes before jumping into the deep end.
C- Student who knows what they want to do that requires trade school or apprenticeship programs.</p>
<p>Forward positive motion that leads to a happy, healthy, individual member of society. Their roads will all be different.</p>
<p>“We go back the original point. ALL options of education should be evaluated for students based on their interests, needs, maturity level, and the families ability to finance the education.”</p>
<p>Interesting that you omit ability.</p>
<p>In answer to your question BI, my perspective on these questions tends to be societal rather than personal. I have little doubt that the US is getting very poor return on its educational subsidies overall, although the occasional rags to riches success story seems to keep carrying the day.</p>
<p>My two children will be starting college in the fall. We tried to pick the least expensive options (some would say we looked for best value) while not ignoring fit, in order to direct the unspent money towards other uses, like retirement savings. Considerations like prestige were completely ignored, and loans were not allowed. Do to personal income rather than ideology, no need-based aid was sought.</p>
<p>I understand the middle-class (and upper-middle class) whine as a tacit acknowledgment that choosing expensive schools requires them to give up something they want to keep.</p>
<p>I very much liked the post that asked “parents, are you sending YOUR kids to vocational school?”</p>
<p>It is a good way to cut through some of the rampant self-serving rationalizing hypocrisy that can make this forum reek. I tried to answer the question to myself, although I don’t know with how much success. I think it is fair to say that both my kids have no vocational aptitudes, but are book smart (4.6 gpa’s, national merit scholars blah blah blah). It is honest to say that we the parents <em>made</em> them that way, in the sense of encouraging them to study for high marks. Although each child has open invitations to help with car maintenance or the projects around the house, they know they can decline without too much angst directed their way, unlike the family discussions that would attend a ‘B’.</p>
<p>So yes, I have to conclude I am guilty as charged, as having bought into and then sold the ‘college success’ parable. I would like to think that I might have had enough intelligence to adapt to a child with a different set of aptitudes, or little aptitude for college.</p>
<p>You guys are horrible at analyzing statements. You just read and assume the first things that jump to mind instead of being meticulous in noticing the choice of words within statements.</p>
<p>
Students can easily, at any age of which they have developed their individual personality (which I’m sure would already be developed by 18…), figure out what types of jobs fit their personality. It’s not rocket science people. Personalities generally fit types of jobs like a foot would fit into a specific shoe size - of course it’s not as strict and unlike feet, exceptions are possible, but it’s a VERY easy and simple way to get started in figuring out your potential directions. CC advertises this as well:</p>
<p>If you read the article carefully, you’ll notice that this article is directed towards people who are unlikely to complete college or are in the bottom quater of their high school graduating class.</p>
I suppose so, Redroses. Maybe they need to be taught a little lesson on maturity. And I’m not trying to be demeaning, but I’m demeaning towards anyone who is to me.</p>
<p>Pandem, your post is wrong is so many ways, I’m not going to even address it.</p>
<p>Blueiguana, I have no clue what you’re talking about. But that’s likely because what you’re addressing is not related to what I’ve been addressing. My “theory,” which isn’t exactly a theory but since I related the word to my initial ranting I will continue its use, is not a one-size-fits-all-neat-little-boxes idea. As for them often not knowing what they want to do, again, that’s because they don’t care.</p>
<p>Furthermore, RS, what people fail to notice is that this statistic attempts to account for EVERY student in the nation, it is not screened at those >middle class. What about those ghetto areas where HS graduation rates are lower than 20%? Add together all those ghetto populations across the country and you have a significant amount of students contributing to the statistic that attempts to over-analyze numbers.</p>
<p>EngineerHead, there’s a reason some people like to frequent the Parents Forum as opposed to the overachieving-teenager-filled sections. The last page of responses reminds me of exactly that reason. Unfortunately, you’ll only recognize the flaws in your arguments once you age a bit – no amount of aggressive rebuttals will help you.</p>
<p>I also noticed that you’re still in high school. Many ambitious high school students “know” what they want to major in or what sort of career they’d like to pursue. Who knows where you’ll be in a few years.</p>
<p>I think I understand the original point EH was making and, from my experience with 5 kids (2 of my own, 3 steps) with very different personalities, it seems to have validity. In considering choices, I think that personality type and learning styles are important and it’s fairly easy to help kids figure out what types (not necessarily specific) of careers would suit them. At the very least, it does give them a place to start! Colleges do this all the time within their advising offices - a few months ago when my D was considering a change from one pre-health major to another, she was advised to take advantage of the personality/career interest testing they offer. She had done a significant amount of research, shadowing, and a formal career exploration program in the original major before she ever went to college but found that she just didn’t enjoy a particular major aspect of it and that didn’t change once she got to college. It simply didn’t suit her personality and she realized that it probably never would. Her new major is still health related but in a less clinical, more personal way and she’s excited about doing volunteer work this summer with professionals in the field.</p>
<p>My kids run the gamut of going straight into a combined programs out of HS, to delayed entry, tech school, and no college at all. All of them were accepted to “good” colleges, with decent to full scholarships, but they made their own decisions based on their own life goals and personalities. In each case, it was the right choice for that particular child and I’m proud of each of them for their accomplishments. There was quite a bit of exploring done during high school through job shadowing, dual-enrollment and vocational courses, and some interesting summer jobs where they came in contact with various professionals. My youngest, a junior, may break with the model as he had decided to start with a two-year degree, following two years of electrical courses in high school, but is now being recruited by 4 year schools for his sport. I’m not sure this will suit his “hands-on, active learning” temperament (although he’ll be happy to continue playing competitively) but he knows what to expect and he can always go back to his original career choice. </p>
<p>I realize we are not the “typical” family and that wouldn’t work for every kid. But I think that encouraging our kids to explore and to actively think and talk about what they like and dislike can save a great deal of angst and disappointment. To me, there’s little more heartbreaking than a kid who feels like a failure simply because he has attempted something he didn’t have the heart to succeed in! The happiest people are doing whatever they have a passion for.</p>
<p>BI, if those “upper-middle-class” parents are worried about the cost of elite $50K/year institutions that only give need-based aid, then they’ll send their kids to second-tier institutions that shower them with merit aid, or, if their kids aren’t smart enough for that, their state school. Either way, they won’t be sending their kids to vocational school or even community college. This article simply isn’t about the families that are rich enough to have an EFC of $50K!</p>
<p>As for EH, does he really believe that 18 year olds, even 20 year olds, can have a real idea of exactly what careers they want? The problem isn’t their personality doesn’t fit with any jobs; it’s simply that it fits with more than one job. Let’s say I’m interested in journalism, but after taking a few poli-sci courses, I realize my real passion is politics. Maybe I’d like to write about politics for a political blog/magazine/newspaper or maybe I’d like to work in a think tank coming up with (or at least proofreading!) policy proposals or maybe I’d like to just go to law school and consider running for office. I have a LOT of options based on my interests, and the fact that I refuse to commit myself to just one does not mean I’m “immature.” Then again, I’m a humanities guy; maybe engineers just think more logically?</p>
<p>EricLG wrote “Interesting that you omit ability.”</p>
<p>This was an oversight was unintentional, but was an oversight nonetheless and SHOULD have been included in my thoughts. Thank you. (Sincerely, as internet can lose intent and I don’t want you to think I am being scarcastic.)</p>
<p>EricLG said “I understand the middle-class (and upper-middle class) whine as a tacit acknowledgment that choosing expensive schools requires them to give up something they want to keep.”</p>
<p>Perhaps this is my error in making my thoughts clear… Where did I talk about people whining? My thoughts were that people are taking a close look at the money they are spending. I my personal case, my oldest has attended CC. His major was available there. He is honestly not mature enough to make the decision right now, has decided to work next year until he is more focused and committed to school. Would you like to meet him? Should we push him to make a decision? He is making many mature decisions that other students his age are not. He pays for insurance on his own car, is responsible for maintenance, pays nominal rent, is involved in community service, handles his own finances (mom and dad do not simply follow his account and add $ as needed). These are life lessons that will serve him well. He is making positive movement towards becoming an independent positive member of society. What is to be gained by pushing him right now, this year, to choose his vocation? Again, would you like to meet him?</p>
<p>My middle son has a very, very clear idea of what he wants to do. We have no question that he will be ready for university in a year. He was told several years ago the financial situation so he would not hook his star on a school that was out of reach financially. He must attend an in state school or receive merit aid from and OOS school to bring tuition to the rate of our instate. There are only two schools instate with his major that are very competitive. We have done a great deal of research to find the schools that are recruiting oos students heavily with good merit aid that have his major (again a short list). I would like to know what part of this is whining or being disappointed at trading prestige for affordability?</p>
<p>Son three will be dual enrolled in high school, earning many credits prior to graduation. He will earn his associates degree at cc w/i a year of graduation if his chosen major is available there, or he will have a great head start at an instate school.</p>
<p>So, thank you for pointing out my omission of ability in choosing a decision with students for their immediate plans after graduation.
I respectfully disagree that ALL students are ready to make a decision at 18.</p>
<p>^pwoods - Again, I take responsibility for evidentially not communicating myself well. </p>
<p>People that are caught in the Donut hole…the situation that they do not qualify for financial aid, but can not simply pay for college out of pocket. </p>
<p>Personally, we have never considered private schools, ever. That is simply a personal choice, not a judgement on others. We always planned on state schools. We had hoped to have it all covered by the time they started school knowing the only aid would be merit and can not be banked on. This did not happen for a number of reasons which respectfully are none of your business, and do not include summer homes, new SUVS, McMansions, or other excessive spending. The new economic climate, I believe makes people pause and make more cautious decisions. If you want to see what our students choices have been read post #92 above.</p>
<p>I made the correlation that people would be looking at their finances and evaluating things based on the new economic climate. This includes families who may have sent their children to private school using loans but due to a new situation they choose not to, or are unable to make those payments. This was ONE example. Who said anything about whining?</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but the idea that a 18 year old kid can decide what he wants to do as a career is ridiculous. I say this as a 19-year old college sophomore. Trust me, I’ve been there, done that. More often than not, you’ll change your mind.</p>
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<p>Right, because an 18-year old kid has been exposed to the wealth of careers and colleges that the world offers. Please. The world doesn’t fit into little neat boxes, and neither do people. I’m glad that you’ve found your interests in engineering, which, luckily for you, is an established field with an established educational/work path.</p>
<p>Most careers don’t fit into a specific college major. I’m all for the “follow your passion” mentality, but I think it’s silly to think psychology or anthropology is really a strong “passion” for the vast majority of its graduates. That’s a different point, but it’s still related to the fact that no one knows what they want to do so young.</p>
<p>Not everyone wants to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer.</p>
<p>Also, most “personality tests” are bunk and follow the same “one size fits all” mentality. Even if you do take their advice seriously, you’re still left with 10+ various careers. I like being creative; should I go to school for industrial design, architecture, graphic design, advertising, marketing, or any of the hundreds of other fields?</p>
<p>^His point been addressed numerous times. So college graduates make more money on average than non-graduates? What does that prove? That smarter people go to college and smarter people make more money?</p>
<p>@Pandem: it’s not that simple. College provides education (classroom learning + common experiences outside of classroom) plus a credential. And its far from simply a sorting device based on intelligence – there are many more things that go into (a) getting into college, and (b) graduating from one if you are admitted. Including luck, good health, money, good work habits, ambition, and so on – none of which is a measure of how “smart” you are.</p>
<p>So the practical question for many of us is the economic payoff from getting a college degree, assuming we have the basic credentials to be admitted, and given our interests and other talents. What Leonhardt’s graphs are showing is that on average those who do earn a college degree get a payoff from it. So if you have the opportunity and other attritributes that might allow you to graduate from college, it’s probably (again, on average) in your economic interest to do so.</p>
<p>I’m not sure what the answer is - force people to get work after high school? Regulate the companies to not require degrees or ‘some college’ before hiring? Ha.</p>
<p>Simply for the sake of this discussion, how do you define a ‘smarter’ person?</p>
<p>Is this someone who has a higher SAT score? Colleges we have visited have said although it is used in the application process, it is only an valid indicator of academic success through the first year of college.</p>
<p>Is this a higher IQ? A high IQ with no motivation gets you nowhere.</p>
<p>Is it a high GPA, class rank, etc?</p>
<p>While the statistics may say that college graduates make more money, many of these people must live in areas where the cost of living is very high because that’s where the jobs are. Their disposable income (and often quality of life) is less than someone in other parts of the country making less. This is not something that you can look at and say ‘Oh, they make more money so their life is better.’ There are way too many factors to make a blanket statement. </p>
<p>What about the person who does not have a college degree, but learns a trade, has good motivation, starts their own business, can live in an area where the housing is reasonable and commute is short. They own their home, pay their bills, and coach little league. Is this person’s life less attractive that the power attorney in NYC who works 60-70hrs / week and pays a fortune for housing? Their hours keep them from seeing their children growing up (if they have chosen to have them). If their spouse also works they pay a great deal in child care. If they live in the city their children may go to private school (big bucks), or they are commuting a long distance so the public schools are decent. This adds to more time from their family.
Both of these are gross generalizations, but they are meant to show two vastly different lifestyles. The latter with a college degree where the income is significantly more. But is their life better? That is subjective. It depends on what your goals are, what makes you happy.</p>
<p>Don’t bash my examples. There is every shade of gray in between these two examples. My point is, just because a college degree may mean more money (and it does not always), that does not guarantee a happier life for all people.</p>
<p>The point is that you can’t show a statistic “College degree holders make more money on average” and then determine that the college degree is the only reason for the result. As already stated: smarter people, on average, go to college, so who’s to say that their increased earnings are because of their mentality and intelligence and not because they have a degree? </p>
<p>Don’t get hung up on my word choice of intelligence. Perhaps “ambitious” is a better word. If John Doe is ambitious enough to get into college, he’s ambitious enough to make something of himself afterwords. College may help him in that process, but it’s certainly not worth thousands of dollars in debt.</p>
<p>Obviously this rules out high-paying professions, such as law, medicine, finance, etc. in which a college degree is required. However, this article isn’t about those majors, and the vast majority of college degree holders are not in that camp.</p>