<p>Basically, the TA and you don't differ all that much. You say SEE ME. The TA gives a conditional F. Both of you expect re-writes. </p>
<p>The TA did not say SEE ME, but a trip to his or her office is in order.</p>
<p>The more I think about the topic, the more I can see that the focus shifted gradually from wrath to honor. Achilles is prickly about his honor and his prickliness is expressed as wrath. When he loses Briseis, he feels that his honor has been trampled on (he's been "dissed") and sulks in his tent. He only comes out to fight after Patroclus has been killed. Besides his grief over the death of his best friend (lover?), he, again feels that Hector has attacked his honor and he must avenge Patroclus' death and restore his own honor in a fight to the death.<br>
I can see how a student would begin thinking about wrath and end up writing a paper about honor if he did not constantly go back to the writing prompt. That can happen with students with ADHD.</p>
<p>allie'smom: I beg your pardon. I wasn't trying to give you a wrap on the knuckles or say your family is doing something wrong, especially, as I said, my temptation to do the same is very strong.</p>
<p>I have finally desisted because I think I would be giving my kids unfair advantage over the other kids; not everyone has a prof for a parent. Also, in the end, I think it lowers my D's confidence because she thinks she can't write as well as mom. I certainly never showed my papers to anyone but my teachers, and you better believe that they had rivers of red ink on them. (For that reason I don't use red ink. It looks like the paper is bleeding.) However, I learned!</p>
<p>If your daughter's teachers don't object, it is certainly none of my business. It would bother me as a teacher. I did not mean to single out your family as I did, just to make an overall comment. I know many feel as you do, so my apologies.</p>
<p>doubleplay: I guess as a professional writer I don't think in a humanities class answering the direct question is the only value a paper has. It seems to me that writing on honor, not wrath, could still produce a valuable paper. If point is to teach student about "rules", than okay, but I still think SEE ME, YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION, PLEASE DO SO, is sufficient. I don't think the F adds anything to the mix. No publishing writer I know writes to someone else's specifications, and as a teacher, I would be thrilled that a student took the initiative to write about what he was interested in. If for some reason I thought the particular question I posed was extremely important, than yes, I would guide the student back to answering that question and teaching thinking in the process, but I don't see why a simple misunderstanding of the intent of the assignment earns zero or F. Just my philosophy, obviously not shared by this TA or many other teachers.</p>
<p>marite: I agree. You make good points, both about the Iliad and about my similarity to TA. I can never bring myself to assign an F; I just find it too discouraging. </p>
<p>I think that in the Iliad the point is that wrath and honor are linked in ways that are disastrous, as Homer demonstrates, both to the individuals and to the societies discussed. Homer's genius is to see this and see the pride of Achilles and Agamemnon as flaws when the culture would have naturally view it as laudable. Homer shows us the cost for Achilles, Patroclus, and ultimately Troy itself. The Iliad is magnificent. My mythology students are reading it right now -- Lattimore version.</p>
<p>The other thing to keep in mind is that these comments were made by a presumably young TA. TAs might not appreciate hubris in freshman--but that doesn't mean they aren't fallible themselves!</p>
<p>I wrote plenty of snarky comments on the papers I graded as a TA. My bad--although the plagerist deserved them!</p>
<ol>
<li><p>This is hardly unusual. This simply reflects the chasm between the expectations of a great HS paper and a decent college paper.</p></li>
<li><p>This should be highly reversible as the first paper typically does not account for a whole lot of the final grade. </p></li>
<li><p>The TA is very accomodating in allowing a rewrite for a revised grade. Honor him or her by responding with a great effort. Well, that is for your son to respond, of course. </p></li>
<li><p>Your son should finish this assignment early and still come home. This would be a wonderful opportunities to discuss expectations in school as well as reinforce your parental support.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>When my friends D started college at a small college this fall they told an anecdote at orientation about grades. A young freshman got back his first paper and got a C. He went to the teacher to question it and she said to come see her after class. He was so freaked out by the C that he persisted and insisted on discussing it now. How can I have a C - I am an A student - I always get As - I have never even had a B before - how can I have a C?. She gently explained to him that in HS school if you meet all the basic requirements of the assignment then you get an A. In college if you meet all the basic requirements of the assignment that is an average paper and gets a C. If your paper is really good you may get a B and if it is really something special then you will get an A.</p>
<p>In the case of the OPs son he did not meet the basic requirements - as in not addressing the topic. I think the TAs comments were probably meant to shock him into realising he had to make sure he was following the requirements exactly (I know my Ds college English teacher lays out a grading rubric that tells her where every potential point is coming from). The fact that he gave him a do over seems very fair so i hope he takes advantage of that option.</p>
<p>I have to say I also have some issues with TAs grading assignments. The poster who commented about how there is a lack of consistancy between TAs hit the nail on the spot and that is what perturbs me the most. My freshman D is already encountering this in a certain science class where the TA that is in charge of her lab is a very hard grader. She looked at a couple of friends graded lab reports (they have different TAs) to see if she could figure out what she was doing wrong to get the lower grades and discovered that her reports seemed to be as good or close enough to where she is puzzled by the 30-40% difference in grading points. She wants to talk to the TA about what she can do to improve the reports to meet his requirements but unfortunately the TA will not talk to individual members of a lab group unless they all came and talk to him together - the rest of her lab group are unconcerned about the grade so will not come with her. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, what else are you going to say to someone who didn't answer the question?
[/quote]
The sarcasm is childish. How about a factual approach: "You disregarded the assigned topic, did not support your argument, and the paper is poorly written. The grade is F, but I will allow a rewrite to be submitted by Monday. See me with questions."</p>
<p>It could have been put another way, I'll grant that. Personally, I wouldn't have done it that way. But I wouldn't send that message to my kid if he was in this situation. The bottom line is, he needs to give the teacher what he or she wants, or he will suffer the wrath of the teacher.</p>
<p>I think directing the student to talk to the TA is the best idea, but encouraging him to really really ASK the TA for input, convey a desire to improve, not whinge that I am an A student. My Berkeley D has always struggled with writing, she has an LD which contributes to her frustration and she is more of a math/science person, BUT she refuses to let writing beat her. She had to take a full year of 2small class size seminar writing, the 1st half is basic writing in all it's glory, the second one is writing but on with any number of cool subjects in which the class can specialise.</p>
<p>D goes to the TA on day 1 with a sincere knowledge of her flaws and expresses a sincere interest in improving her writing ability- not about the grade, about improving. In each case the TAs are delighted to have some one who genuinely wants to get better, who adds to the discussion, who attends every single class. No TA has minded her emailing or bringing by a draft to ensure she is on topic and spending her time improving along the right avenue. I think d got As in both classes, and she earned them, but better, she learned.</p>
<p>So, if your son can go in sincerely interested in improving his writing for college, I would bet the TA would be willing to work with him. The idea of submitting a draft sounds "lame" to kids at first, but profs would rather see a draft than hear the whinging aftermath of a low grade from being off topic</p>
<p>Remember the TA said, not only did you not answer the question, the paper was poorly written as well. I think this is more a case of not knowing how to write a college paper than just not writing on topic. It happened to my sister-in-law who flunked three courses freshman year, but after taking some time off and spending about a year taking courses at U. of Florida, managed to come back to Harvard, much more prepared and willing to ask for help.</p>
<p>I think the TA could have been less snarky, but I expect this paper really stood out as deficient.</p>
<p>Like somemom's D., my son has a LD which makes writing very difficult for him. He takes hours and hours to write a short 3-5 page paper, revising it for days, double checking sentence structure and grammar, etc. In his freshman english class, he received a D on his first paper--he was devastated.</p>
<p>He met with the prof who told him that in his opinion he would never receive higher than a C from him (this is after one paper). S. felt that the prof had already made up his mind on how he would fair grade-wise and that it was pointless to even try.</p>
<p>He ended up dropping the class. In the two subsequent english classes he received very positive feedback (thankfully that gave him more confidence).</p>
<p>Profs also have different grading practices. When I was in college, a famous prof announced that anyone who showed up to class automatically would get a B; anyone who wrote a paper would get an A. None of my other profs had that policy.</p>
<p>The TA was snarky; but the paper was not on topic, which itself could be interpreted the wrong way by a reader. Be thankful that the OP's son was allowed to re-write it. Not every prof or TA would give a second chance--and they don't have to.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not every prof or TA would give a second chance--and they don't have to.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Absolutely true, and this is a reason to really consider whether you want your child to attend a school which offers a merit scholarship rather than financial aid grants if you are poor or middle class. This student is on a full tuition merit scholarship and must maintain a 3.5.</p>
Agreed. But each prof has his own class and grading rules. With TAs the students are all in the same class but getting graded by different rules (in this particular class anyway).</p>
<p>However, in this case, there are skies of blue, the birds are singing.
The student is allowed a do over. What a buh-less-ing. Take advantage of it. </p>
<p>While at it, maybe throw in the theme of "grace" along with "wrath"?</p>
<p>Maybe that's taking a little too much risk. Nahh. Just go with wrath.</p>
<p>My daughter also was frustrated by different grading practices of TA's, but that is also part of the process of adjusting to college expectations. The flip side is that having TA's do the grading enables the prof. to assign more papers, essays, or problem sets in the context of a larger class, which helps the kids to get feedback throughout the semester and stay on track with their studies.</p>
<p>When my d. had reason to question the TA's grading practices, she went to the prof. Last semester she had a class with more than 300 students -- the TA's comments were rather off base -- and when she talked to the prof. he agreed with her and raised the grade. Even in large classes, most profs are happy to talk to their students during office hours.</p>
<p>In this particular case, I don't think its warranted because the TA was very clear in expressing where the student messed up and what needed to be done to rectify it. The student either needs to write a paper about wrath or do a very good job of explaining the connection between wrath & honor.</p>
<p>This brings back a couple of college memories. I took a Greek Literature class (we read both the Iliad and the Odyssey, as well as some other works). The teacher stated from the start that she was a tough grader. She never gave out assigned topics. We had to make up our own topics and write essays on them. She also did not give grades during the class - just copious notes on papers she handed back. Mine all started in this fashion: An interesting topic choice, but.... The list of negatives went on and on. I just assumed everyone in the class ended up with similar comments. I thought it was very demoralizing, but I was stubborn, so I kept doing my best (and reading her comments, which were very helpful, once I got over my hurt feelings). I ended up doing well in the class but I think a lot of students just gave up due to the tone of her comments. The TA's comments must have given the OP's son a similar discouraged feeling. </p>
<p>It was a shame, because this professor was very talented in leading class discussions and making the material come alive. At least I didn't have an F staring me in the face, but I really had no clue how I was doing in the class, and I was afraid to ask. I assumed she'd have let me know if I were actually failing, as it was a small, seminar-style class, so none of us were anonymous.</p>
<p>I had a philosophy class later on in college, where we were told that papers would be marked down if they were LONGER than 4 pages. Every word had to count. Fillers would be heavily counted against us. For that class, I did use the writing center on campus. They were very helpful in pointing out gaps in my arguments or areas where I was not being as clear as I thought I was. It can be hard sometimes to do this kind of editing on your own, because you know what you mean and you can't always see where someone else might have trouble following your thought process. I think writers often put their work away to gain distance to do this sort of self-editing, but when you have an assignment due in a week - or whenever - you don't have that luxury. The writing center was perfect for me in providing that needed objectivity.</p>
<p>As a writing teacher, I don't mind if students are inspired to deviate somewhat from the precise assigned topic,as long as their paper is a creative response to the material under discussion. However. in future careers, a student might well benefit from having learned to fulfill an assigned task to the letter. Much is made in education today of "soft skills." These include dealing with a variety of "bosses" and understanding their personality quirks and how to satisfy them.</p>
<p>It is easy to understand that ADHD might interefere with a student's ability to follow directions successfully without going off on a tangent. Many ADHD people perform very well in creative professions but they suffer and require support in exactly these sorts of situations. The high-achieving son of the OP should be able to learn the coping skills required in this case and will benefit from making that effort.</p>