Please help with a college list for an possible applied math major.

College Search & Selection
1

It’s finally getting close to the end of the junior year for my son, and I need to start planning our second college trip in June . I’m still struggling with finding good more-or-less matches. I’ll try to lay out the current state of our research on colleges to save you time, so please bear with me.

The stats:
GPA : UW 4.0/4, W 4.82/5 and on a track to grow further.
SAT 1600, ACT 35, both on first try.
Will take SAT Math 2, Physics and Chemistry in May, I think it’s safe to assume he’ll do well.
Took AP Calc BC and APUSH last year (both 5), now doing a full IB diploma, plus probably a few more AP exams.
Now taking multivariate calc, next year might take math classes at the university if the logistics works out.

School: large competitive public school, sends 1-3 kids each year to almost each of the tippy tops.
School doesn’t rank but he’s certainly in the top 5%. Teachers love him.

EC/awards:
Has been doing research for 2 years with a mentor from a national lab, has done internship about 30 hrs/week in the same place last summer, and will do this again this summer. This project got the 2nd place in his category on state SEF plus a number of special awards. A publication may be in the works but likely not in time for the applications. I hope for a glowing rec from his mentor.
Robotics, math club, coding club - has been doing these consistently since freshman year, plus assorted shorter-term stints like science bowl.
He’s also been working on a somewhat complicated computer game with friends for a while, hopefully they’ll be able to finally finish it this summer, put it online and maybe even earn money but I don’t hold my breath.
This year: USNCO (chemistry) national round qualifier, NACLO invitational qualifier, FBLA state qualifier (not sure if they have a shot for the nationals).
A couple of state-level math awards but he says he much prefers research to contests.
Almost certainly NMSF
Officer in Science NHS, done some volunteer science outreach activities plus peer tutoring, but in total probably less than 50 hours. Outside official tutoring he spends a lot of time helping his friends with their schoolwork, I’m going to write this in a brag sheet for the counselor.

Non-STEM:
Debate for 3 years, 2x state qualifier (may not be too impressive but I bet he deserves the “Most improved” award!)
Rock climbing consistently for many years but not really at a competitive level.

So generally a very strong student who spent time following his passions even when they don’t necessarily lead to an impressive win or a nice resume - and that’s exactly what good colleges want, right???

He wants to study applied math, possibly a double major with CS or physics, but also wants to explore different areas of math and applications. So the goal is a college strong in math and science, with a good breadth of course offerings and good opportunities for undergrad research. This probably rules out places like CMU or JHU where math departments seem too focused on specific applications. I’m also not sure about engineering-oriented schools like RPI and GATech but they’re still in the running, I’ll appreciate an opinion on their basic science research. WPI is out because of team project-oriented curriculum (he works great as part of a team when it’s self-selected, but there’s been a lot of frustration with school team projects).

He also said he prefers a smaller school in a nice town or suburb with decent weather (no extreme cold or heat), but neither is a deal-breaker and the level of academics trumps everything else. Socially he’s a nerd type who thrives in a company of similar peers, completely uninterested in drinking or sports. I’d prefer to avoid schools where social life is mostly centered in fraternities. It would also be nice to have a generally friendly and not elitist or too competitive vibe.

Financially almost certainly full pay, and we’re able and willing to pay all this money but it’s not like it’s pocket change for us, so we’ll only do this for a school which is significantly better academically than his safety which is CU-Boulder (with highly rated applied math and especially physics departments).

His first choices are MIT and Caltech where he’ll probably apply EA, although his friend was trying to convince him applying EA to Stanford may be better because it boosts his chances while EA doesn’t boost them much in MIT or Caltech. I’m not sure about this. He might also apply EA to UChicago.

Not sure if HYP are worth applying RD but might not hurt.

Others on the list
Harvey Mudd - will probably apply RD.
Williams - has a great math program but seems too isolated and maybe too few STEM people to hang out with.
Other LACs don’t have nearly the breadth of math offerings of HMC and Williams, so I think they’re out.
Will likely limit state flagships to Berkeley, UCLA and UMich.
Maybe Cornell (but the weather…)
Maybe Brown (great applied math program and he’ll like the open curriculum, but is this the right fit in spirit?)
Rice looks good so far, also Northwestern.

So this is already a good-size list with basically only reaches, we desperately need something in between and also hints to help trim the list down. It might possibly be a good strategy to have only very selective schools and a safety on the list, except he said he’s fine with going to CU but I’m sure it will be very difficult psychologically to all of us if he’s not accepted anywhere else. So a few good-but-not-under-15% schools on the list would be nice.

NYU would have been perfect because of its great applied math program and relatively high admissions rate, but he’ll probably hate being on Manhattan.
Case Western - I’m not sure about Cleveland, plus is it really better than CU?
May also consider Canadian schools (UToronto, UBC, not sure about McGill because of the weather, but on the other hand he’s pretty good in French so that might be a good opportunity to gain fluency).

2

I hope you guys enjoy the college search process. We had fun with it. It was very nice to see different areas of the country with the kids.

We know Case Western well. It’s in a nice area near downtown Cleveland, which is an underrated city. Almost all of the major cultural institutions (art galleries, theaters, museums, etc.) are right next to campus. Campus is split by Euclid Ave. (it used to be Case Institute of Technology and Western Reserve College, which merged), so kind of dual campuses. Freshmen cross Euclid to get from freshman housing to most of the academic buildings on the other side. To me, it’s about an exact cross between a campus in an urban setting and an urban campus integrated into the city (like GWU in DC). Euclid has undergone a lot of redevelopment in the last five years and offers a lot of options for students. Little Italy is small but right up the street. The vibe seems to fit his personality. Weather is cold and gray, like Cornell.

Rice is really terrific in all respects–top, top academics, nice campus, beautiful weather, etc. Michigan is a great choice.

Yes, your son seems fully qualified, AND you are right to be concerned that most of those schools are reaches, because they are for everyone. An example: we visited a tip-top LAC 5-6 years ago. They said 70% of applicants were fully qualified, and they were confident that they would succeed academically and otherwise at the school. At the time, they accepted 14% (lower now). So 4 in 5 applicants that the school thought fully qualified could not be accommodated. Some of your son’s choices accept less than 14%. So it is tough at the few dozen most competitive schools (fortunately much easier at many excellent schools).

It sounds like some mid-size national universities might be a good fit:

One strong possibility: William and Mary: public, mid-size national university (6200 undergrads), very good weather, very strong academics, Greek life but very chill relatively speaking and not at all a dominant part of social life, very friendly students, immediately adjacent to historic district, which offers a fair number of delis, pizza places, coffee shops, etc that are very walkable for students. I know CS majors, and they do very well. You can declare once there, I’m almost positive.

The other two, that, to me, are very similar are the University of Rochester and Tufts University. I think of them as VA, NY, and MA versions of the same school–mid-size national universities, similar size, with research opportunities, nice campuses, etc. Rochester is much more highly ranked than I knew before we started our search. Tufts is in a near-in suburb outside Boston. There is a T stop (subway) at Davis Square, which is just a few blocks from campus. Students can take that to downtown Boston. I think vibe at all three would be at least a general fit for your son. William and Mary definitely wins on weather. Even with your son’s stats, I’d still have to think of Tufts as more of a low reach. I’d call the other two matches, though these are just guesstimates (which I shouldn’t be doing for a prospective applied math student).

The one other state flagship I might suggest is the University of Washington. Beautiful campus (cherry trees in bloom now) basically in a near-in urban/suburban area near downtown Seattle. It’s just a handful of stops to downtown from light rail station near campus. CS is super strong and very competitive. It’s an advantage to get a direct admit, which is super competitive for OOS students (in-state too). Weather is gray but not all that cold (marine environment). I think he could definitely find his people there. Honestly, it sounds like it might be a better fit than UCLA, though if you are CA in-state, it would much less expensive. Good luck, have fun!

3

Thank you @TTG . We’re in Colorado. I’ve added Tufts to the visiting list since we’ll be in Boston anyway. Maybe Rochester. Thinking about a car trip from Chicago to NYC through Ann Arbor, Boston and either Cleveland or Toronto. I’m still not sure how to tell if a place is significantly better academically than CU, besides the usual small classes-research opportunities stuff. I wonder if there is any statistics available on where students in the best grad schools come from.

I do enjoy the research and visits, but it’s getting more and more nerve-wracking as we’re trying to figure out where to direct the most effort.

4

Add Waterloo to your Canadian list. Wisconsin and UT Austin. GA Tech is very strong in math (even though it’s known for engineering).

5

You’re welcome! Rochester is just off I-90 between Cleveland or Toronto and Boston. We’ve done that college trip a couple of times.

You might look at the departmental webpages. They sometimes have info (sometimes selective) where recent grads are studying.

Maybe this is me, but I tend to think pretty decisively that small differences in reputation and ranking are really insignificant in the big picture. It really depends dramatically more on HOW a student does than WHERE they go. Which is why I really advocate that students look for the best fit for them. Then they will have a better chance of making a smooth transition and of finding the kinds of people that make them be their best person. For example, what if a student really dislikes being in the city, and would really feel most comfortable in a small town, but Columbia or NYU is clearly the most highly ranked school among their acceptances. Would he/she be better off at one of the NYC schools or a terrific LAC, maybe 20 spots lower in the rankings? What if a student were not at all into Greek life and their top acceptance was a school where dominant to social life at the school? Would that be a better choice than a school with no Greek life but a dozen spots lower? I think it can be helpful to consider things like that.

There’s going to be very little difference in what is taught in the classroom in any of the schools mentioned on this thread. Graduates will have no limitation in going on to grad school at any of them.

Often, when you look at professors’ bio on departmental webpages, they will have gone to many different schools, including many public universities, and often not the state flagships.

Rankings and reputation certainly are real factors. But, with over 3000 total schools in the US, the difference between 22 and 32 doesn’t seem too significant in my mind, especially since criteria may or may not match a particular students interests. And I love this example: I know 3 people who are enormously wealthy by any standard. All made their money. All are successful otherwise in life. One went to a state flagship that’s probably ranked in about the middle among state flagships. One went to a second-tier public; the other to a third-tier public in a state with a poor reputation for higher education. Two went on to top, top grad schools and one did not go to grad school.

Your son is obviously a terrific student, should be applying to some of the most elite schools, and will go to a great school in the end. It will have outstanding students, faculty, and staff. Finding a great fit will be an important part of it too. Again, maybe me, but I’d treat very small differences in rankings as insignificant relative to fit. Good luck, we had a lot of fun visiting many of the same schools. I hope you guys do as well.

6

Hope to get more responses here as I’m planning the college trip in June. On the list to visit so far: NYU, Columbia, Yale, Brown, MIT, Harvard, Tufts, Williams, RPI, Rochester, Cornell, CWRU or UToronto, UMich, UChicago, Northwestern. I don’t think we’ll have opportunities or time for tours in all of them, so we’ll probably just wander around, be tourists and have fun, but I know several alumni who will help. The kid is not making it easy for me, he keeps saying he’ll be fine anywhere as long as academics and research opps are good.

I have one more question. There are professors in a few schools who do research on the same topic he’s doing research on. Would it be worthwhile for admissions to try to connect with them, send them his paper or visit if they’re on campus? I might get an introduction through a friend who also works in a related area. But he’s not necessarily going to continue research on the same topic while in college, I really want him to cast a wider net and try several areas.

7

These selective colleges are among those that appear in a Princeton Review sampling, “Great Schools for Mathematics Majors”:

Harvey Mudd
MIT
UChicago
Caltech
Harvard
Haverford
Hamilton
Bowdoin
Reed
Rice
Carleton
Grinnell
Macalester
URochester
St. Olaf

If nothing else, this list could serve to confirm some of your son’s current schools of interest.

8

You or your son should email the professor and set up a meeting. My oldest daughter (with a few exceptions) did not visit a college unless she could schedule a meeting with a department head or a professor. It gives you a much better idea of your course of study than the standard tours. Also it better informed her decisions and applications, which I think helped her with admissions. As a result of one such meeting, she did have one professor speak to admissions on her behalf.

I don’t know if I would visit LAC’s like Williams in the summer unless you can line up some meetings. Most LAC’s will be essentially be closed down for the summer.

9

We’ve done a couple of long college trips. Here are a few unsolicited tips:

–Take notes after each visit. You’ll be shocked how much schools run together. Get down important info and include some details about who does the info sessions and tour guides. This can help jog memories, and one of mine was asked at an interview (at their top choice) who their tour guide had been. The admissions reps often know the tour guides well. I also liked to include funny or odd things we observed. That really helps to jog the memory as well.

–Try to take a day off after a couple of days of tours. It might seem like a waste of time but can really recharge the batteries and make it more of a trip than a slog. For example, we went to Michigan and then Chicago schools and then Wisconsin. In Wisconsin, we spent a day visiting Madison and Frank Lloyd Wright’s Taliesin and taking a boat cruise on one of the lakes adjacent to Madison.

–Have fun. A lot of it is about finding a fit. It’s easier to find if some one, or some thing, or some place is right if one is relaxed.

–Sometimes it’s a good idea to interview at a place that is an option but maybe not a top option. Students usually learn that interviews are relaxed after they do one or two. It’s kind of nice to reach that conclusion before getting to a top choice. Come with a question, one not readily available online. Often questions about a school’s culture/social life are helpful.

–I always find it most helpful to put questions to tour guides in personal terms. What was YOUR favorite class? What one thing would YOU change about the school? Where do YOU like to go on weekends? Did you go through rush; how did you decide to join your sorority/fraternity?I find you get fuller answers than when asking, for example, What do students do on the weekend? How does rush work?

10

Agreed with trying to meet the prof. We found that super helpful when my daughter was searching. We were able to meet with profs over the summer as well, even at LACs. I will also throw out that we found it helpful to go to the undergrad department office and speak to the staff and grad students. Some of the staff were able speak to course scheduling, how they integrate study abroad, etc…At one school, the admin even gave us a tour of the building associated to my daughter’s major and got us into some labs that weren’t on the tour.

11

I know you are asking for matches but I’ll add to your thoughts with:

Rice, WashU, Vandy and UChicago seem to like perfect SAT/ACT scores and might boost his chances there plus they all have the chance for merit that might end up making them very desirable once a decision needs to be made.

That sounds like Princeton. I’d recommend it he does apply to HYP. Also the best need-based FA. Run the NPC to see if you’d get any aid.

12

I would not rule out CMU - they have a strong math program. And it is easy to double major in physics or CS.
Case and CMU have a 4 year BS/MS program (there are others too, but these come to mind). Case has merit $.

I thought JHU had a good math program too.

Williams and Swarthmore are two LACs that DS explored for math. Some others he looked at didn’t appear to have enough math for his needs. Williams has the tutorial program and a yearlong exchange with Oxford. At Swarthmore students have the ability to take classes at UPenn.

Rice and Emory (warm climates) have strong math programs too.

There are others mentioned above. NYU and Columbia are strong in math, but if one doesn’t want NYC there are other options.

Chicago has strong math, but they also have a large number of gen ed requirements - as does Harvard. Brown is the opposite with no gen ed. So this is something to consider as you’re exploring schools.

June will be hard to get a good feel for campus life, since most schools are out unless they are on the quarter system (Caltech and Chicago).

13

For high-stats prospective math majors looking for match/target schools, St. Olaf College is a name that comes up often. It’s small, and you’d have to contend with the Minnesota winters. However, those may not be your worst-possible compromises, if math program quality is your top priority. If you don’t like those features, then reconsider NYU. One could grow to love Manhattan.

However, especially for a Colorado resident, CU-Boulder may be more desirable than either of those (or CWRU, or possibly CMU). I suppose it’s more of a safety than a match. FWIW, it seems to be the least selective university that makes USNWR’s list of top schools for applied math (https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/applied-mathematics-rankings).

14

@momofsenior1 The idea of approaching multiple strangers (or me approaching them on his behalf) will have DS groan very loudly, but we’ll try :slight_smile:

@Dolemite I have some doubts about whether Princeton is a cultural fit. Anyway, there was only one kid from our school who was admitted to Princeton over the past 3 years - for comparison, 5 were admitted to Harvard and 7 to Stanford - so I can’t help thinking not much chance here. We won’t get any need-based aid, assets too large (long story).

@arwarw I think we’ll visit Williams just to see if the campus and town feel way too small.

@tk21769 I have a feeling he might draw the line at Minnesota winters.

15

The applied math at Northwestern is very strong but it’s within the engineering school with probably different focus from those within the math department at other schools (if the math department in those schools has such major). Check out their research to make sure it is what you are looking for.

16

Update: he’s got the first place in FBLA state and is going to nationals. Does this mean anything (he’s in a programming type of event)? I’m totally flabbergasted because I didn’t even know this existed before this year. Will it look really weird for adcoms that he is doing well in all these competitions but didn’t qualify for AIME (didn’t care enough to prepare)?

17

We visited quite a few campuses and the picture becomes a bit clearer.
MIT and Caltech are still first choices. Liked Yale and Cornell. RPI, Williams, NYU and Columbia fell off the list. Liked UMich more than UC’s somewhat unexpectedly for me but Zingerman’s could have something to do with it :slight_smile:

So what’s probably going to happen is in the fall he applies EA to MIT, Caltech, UChicago, UMich and RD to UCB and UCLA (deadlines 11/30). If he’s not accepted outright into MIT or Caltech then applying RD to more reaches - Yale, Cornell, Stanford, maybe Brown, Harvey Mudd and Northwestern, plus safety CU-Boulder. Not sure about Harvard and Princeton, feel he doesn’t have a great chance there.

I feel he has an excellent chance in at least one of UC’s and UMich, but I might be wrong of course. I feel that looking for matches has been a losing battle. I think Rice has many qualities he likes but I’m not sure it can be considered a match. Other possibilities include GATech, UWash, UIUC, UToronto and UBC. We visited none of these so will need to research the environment. I think our visits confirmed that the campus and city environment plays a bigger role in his decision than he likes to admit, and large size is not a deal-breaker. There have been a conspicuous lack of enthusiasm for private schools which are not as well-known for their STEM offerings. like Tufts.

Forgot to add he’s got 800 in SAT Math2, Chem and Phys, so all his numbers are basically as good as it gets.

18

Not sure if anybody will see or be interested in an update here, but the application season is finally over and I need to write it as a closure.
So, DS applied to MIT, Caltech, UChicago, UMich and CU Bouder EA, and later to UCB and UCLA. Was accepted to CU Boulder with not-too-impressive merit, and to Caltech, which was totally unexpected and a huge boost to morale. Deferred by MIT, UChicago and UMich. After this he pulled applications to UCB and UCLA because they required him to take an art class in spring which he didn’t really want to take. Also applied to Stanford RD but no other places. Princeton was discussed for a while but ultimately he didn’t feel like applying. In spring, rejected by MIT, UChicago and Stanford and waitlisted by UMich.

Looking back, I suspect UMich waitlisting was due to yield protection and he didn’t show enough love to convince them it was his first choice - naturally, because it wasn’t. What irks me is that they specifically ask in their deferral letter not to send anything in besides the first semester grades, and DS is a stickler for the rules. However, I saw many kids sent in LOCI and it does look like they helped. I can understand that many strong kids probably have UMich as their backup and the AOs are wary of accepting many of them only to see them go elsewhere, but I wonder if they lose a lot of these kids this way who don’t get in to any of their reaches and would have actually attended UMich if shown some love. But it’s their call.

Considering other rejections it was a bit disappointing although not terribly surprising. UChicago of course is famous for accepting only a minuscule percent of deferred EA students who don’t do ED2. They’re looking for kids who are passionate about UChicago and DS just wasn’t passionate enough, although he did love it and wrote a great uncommon essay (his English teacher said it was the best she ever saw). For MIT, most of the essays were shortened versions of Caltech essays, and DS is not really great at writing concisely. Plus, he sent his full research paper to Caltech but only an abstract to MIT (again, following instructions). Considering also no Common App essay and not enough room for all ECs, his MIT app was basically a worse version of his Caltech app. It might also have hurt that he didn’t participate in AMC and didn’t have any published papers, successful businesses, created nonprofits - in short, not many formal tangible results for all his hard work. Same probably goes for Stanford, where there wasn’t even a supplement to show off his most impressive work - the research paper.

However, looking at other acceptances to the same colleges from our HS, there is a clear pattern. All kids he know who were accepted to MIT and UChicago were athletes. While certainly very good students, they weren’t academic superstars, and didn’t participate in academic competitions. And Stanford accepted a student who is a double legacy.

So DS will be going to Caltech in the fall, and my conclusion is that this is exactly where he should be because it does seem to be the last top school in the country which values academic achievements more than athletic. I’m by no means bashing athletes, by the way, but I do think so much focus on athletic achievements on the part of even the most highbrow schools in the country not only helps the school spirit, donations etc., but also sends a clear message about the country’s values. Also Caltech is know to be more about pure scientific research, and DS’s application was very much research focused, so this might have been a factor. Anyway, the application process worked as well as it possibly could for us, but I realize there was also a huge amount of pure luck to be chosen for such a small school without any national-level awards, and we’re very happy and grateful.

19

Thank you for your update, it’s always fun to read where the kids get in and end up. Congratulations to him (and you!) on Caltech. A very impressive admission and he’ll no doubt thrive there.