Please rank following schools for a prospective I-Banker

College Search & Selection
81

<p>For students on CC who are looking at a career on Wall Street and how that impacts your selection of a college, you have to understand that there is waaaaay too much attention given on CC to investment banking and not nearly as much to the other business segments which really are responsible for the vast majority of the revenues and earnings (and the compensation). Investment banking is a contributing business, but it probably has more value for the franchise and the brand in prestige terms than it does in absolute revenues and earnings.</p>

<p>For further perspective about the power of investment banking on Wall Street, take a look at how Goldman Sachs did during 2007. And this is coming from the # 1 investment banking firm on the Street. The numbers are even more lopsided at most other firms. </p>

<p>2007 Revenues at Goldman Sachs:</p>

<p>Total Revenues: $46 bn</p>

<p>Investment Banking: $7.56 bn (16%)
-Mergers & Acquistions: $4.2 bn (9%)
-Underwriting: $3.33 bn (7%)</p>

<p>Fixed Income, Currency & Commodities: $16.2 bn (35%)</p>

<p>Equities: $11.3 bn (25%)</p>

<p>Principal Investments: $3.76 bn (8%)</p>

<p>Asset Management: $4.5 bn (10%)</p>

<p>Securities Services: $2.7 bn (6%)</p>

<p>And I could not agree more with xiggi-all this posturing about the various colleges is increasingly like the argument about how many angels fit on the head of a pin. Northwestern, Brown, Cornell, and many others are great schools with many great graduates and plenty of alumni on Wall Street. But there are also plenty of students from lower profile colleges who found their way to the Street and ended up doing pretty darn well. The designation of target, core, visited, etc. are nice and help in positioning for that initial interview and some helpful pushes from entrenched alumni, but your life’s course is not determined (or ended) if you don’t attend one of these. Good people often come from the most unlikely places.</p>

82

<p>Alex, that is very reasonable. No argument from me.</p>

83

<p>PimpDaddy1,</p>

<p>When you said "undergrad class for IBD and S&T", is that for all offices or just NYC office?</p>

84

<p>hawkette,</p>

<p>What exactly is your point? </p>

<p>You do this in every thread. Yes, Sales and Trading, for example, produces more revenue for firms than investment banking. And? These divisions both still actively recruit from a select few. If you want to talk about other divisions as well fine but let it be known that some firms only recruit for middle or back office roles at some universities.</p>

<p>Noone is disputing that a graduate from a lesser-known school can get a job on Wall Street. However, it is 100x easier to come from a targeted university. FACT. Look at any FT or SA resume book and you will see how lopsided the numbers are of "targets v. non-targets." </p>

<p>For example due to the credit crunch, firms cut back significantly on their recruiting events at their targets; what I am saying is FT recruiting this fall was absolutely terrible for the most targeted universities. So what do you think that meant for non-targets? Exactly. </p>

<p>We can sit here and talk about how anyone who is talented can make their way to Wall Street but at the end of the day it is still a field that is rather exclusive (some would argue elitist), and a student would be wise to go to a target.</p>

<p>I appreciate what you do on this site in terms of trying to offer another perspective on colleges, but at the end of the day let's be realistic.</p>

85

<p>Majayiduke09,
My point is two-fold. One, I really think a lot of the high school students (and some college students as well) who post on CC haven’t got a clue what I-banking is and how it sits among the various businesses on Wall Street. I am trying to provide a little perspective and education so that they can see that it is an important business segment, but it is only one of many areas within a major investment bank. My perception is that these students hear/read I-banking and M&A and Goldman Sachs and $100k+ annual compensation for an analyst job and that is the end of their understanding. It would be like a 17-year old student deciding conclusively to pursue dermatology because the pay is supposed to be so good (and even if they don’t know what dermatology means). </p>

<p>Second, I want to communicate that students can get to Wall Street from a much wider range of colleges than many will assert here. Those doing the asserting will usually have come from one of about 6-8 schools and act like no one else coming from another college has a prayer. I think that this is a vast overstatement, the degree to which is determined by the bank that one is pursuing and the specific area of that bank that one is seeking a position in. I would suggest again that the universe is quite broad (30-40 colleges and probably more) that send the lion’s share of students to NYC for jobs. Their numbers may vary, but it’s not like the student from Colgate or Davidson or some similarly high-quality, lower-profile college who goes to Wall Street is going to be the only one from their school working in Manhattan (and I don’t mean backoffice jobs). Students from these less visible schools are found all over the place. </p>

<p>Is there more interest for Wall Street positions among the student body at a Dartmouth or a Cornell than at a Wash U or a Wake Forest or a U Wisconsin? Yes. Do they have more embedded alumni who can help grease the process for them? Yes. Can talented students from these less prominently represented schools still find their way to Wall Street? IMO, yes. And that is all that really matters as it relates to the college search process. Students should be looking to find the best fit for them for their undergraduate years. Part of their individual calculus might be what college gives them the best position to come from, but I would dissuade them from making such a fine (and ultimately unknowable) calculation to solely (or even heavily) drive their college choice. IMO, when the undergraduate years have come and gone, the true difference in the job-hunting process, and in the ultimate result, will be the student and not the college that they come from.</p>

86

<p>


</p>

<p>Way to be wrong, big guy. GS takes more SA than Lehman and Citi, especially after their profits stemming from the credit crisis (while LB didn't suffer significantly, Citi did). "Ignored by others who take very few students...GS"? Where the hell did you get that from -- The</a> Goldman Sachs Group - Google Book Search</p>

<p>Also, I'd like to see your statistical data for this assertion:</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

87

<p>
[quote]
Students should be looking to find the best fit for them for their undergraduate years. Part of their individual calculus might be what college gives them the best position to come from, but I would dissuade them from making such a fine (and ultimately unknowable) calculation to solely (or even heavily) drive their college choice.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While I think you underestimate the importance of university presence on Wall Street in attaining a job, I agree with this 100%.</p>

<p>ixjunitxi,</p>

<p>Not sure how you came up with that list. I definitely met WAY MORE Cornell , Dartmouth, Duke, Ross, and Stern than Haas on the Street.</p>

<p>I do agree with your comments on Wustl and Emory though.</p>

88

<p>ixjunitxi,</p>

<p>The following show your statement about Northwestern is questionable:
Current</a> Recruiters, Current Students, MMSS, Weinberg College of Arts & Sciences, Northwestern University
<a href="http://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/students/Internship_Directory.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/students/Internship_Directory.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This is just for MMSS that graduates 40 students a year and many of them go to grad school. Considering the size, it shows NU is recruited well. I do realize MMSS is a bit of an honor program so this isn't representative of the whole undergrad. But NU econ is one of the finest and 90% of MMSS students are econ majors. </p>

<p>Berkeley's webpage shows they are well-recruited by IB firms but I suspect the reason some of you don't see many of them "on the street" (NYC) is that most of them stay in California. The most recent MBA employment report (undergrads no available) shows that over 80% of the MBA graduates stayed in California. I think SF has good number of positions once you consider the number of competing candidates (Stanford/Berkeley pretty much dominate).</p>

<p>Chicago has even more positions than SF and lots of NU grads stay in Chicago.</p>

89

<p>Majayiduke09,
Just to provide a little more background to my opinions stated above…</p>

<p>Consider a job candidate from the Schreyer Honors College at Penn State and one from Princeton. Students from Princeton are darn good and so are students from Schreyer. Great high school academic records with tough curriculum, high GPA, high standardized test score, leadership positions, etc. In college, assume as well that both students did very well and engaged in a variety of interesting, challenging courses, ECs and summer internships. </p>

<p>Both students interview (although the Schreyer student may have to be creative just to get his/her name in the process to begin with while Princeton is likely a Core or Target School) and the interviewer from ABC Prestigious Investment Bank (regardless of business segment in the bank) will almost undoubtedly come in expecting the Princeton grad to be the obvious choice. But after the first five minutes of the interview, the quality of the student will determine the winner. The Schreyer student WILL be at an initial disadvantage and have to prove his/her worth, while this will be more quickly assumed of the Princeton grad. But a talented Schreyer student can easily prepare for this and, with an open-minded interviewer, overcome this objection. </p>

<p>At that point, the calculus changes, the pendulum swings and the bank may have a great incentive to hire the Schreyer grad. Great students coming from Princeton are commonplace as the numbers of Princeton grads on Wall Street are huge; the numbers for Schreyer/Penn State are much smaller. But wouldn’t it be great for the bank to have some (more) representation from Schreyer/PSU. As long as the student quality in the interview process can be accepted as of similar level, then the bank is well served by expanding its universe of colleges represented. It’s just good business, can be a source of new, fresh ideas and provides broader, deeper pools of talent to recruit from, today and tomorrow. If you buy into the whole diversity argument as it applies to college admissions, this idea of broader undergraduate representation is easy to accept. </p>

<p>Now, to varying degrees, substitute the names of 30-50 other schools around the country for Schreyer and hopefully, that gives you a better understanding of why I post as I do that students can succeed in getting to the Street from a wide variety of colleges. Their numbers by institution may not always be large, but I would disagree with those who say you must go to certain undergraduate college in order to get to the investment banking (or S/T or AM or other areas) analyst jobs in NYC. </p>

<p>In saying this, it’s not that I underestimate the value of the most heavily recruited colleges, but I don’t see this as some all-exclusive enclave. A handful of prestige-focused individual interviewers may, but IMO the Street is generally smarter and more meritocratic than that. It’s probably hardest to make these judgments about undergraduates because they have so little track record to consider in making hiring decisions and thus the historical powers will have the upper hand initially. But for the aspiring student, the game for getting to Wall Street has many more moves beyond just the selection of a college.</p>

90

<p>
[quote]
In saying this, it’s not that I underestimate the value of the most heavily recruited colleges, but I don’t see this as some all-exclusive enclave.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok. I can agree with this.</p>

91

<p>
[quote]
Noone is disputing that a graduate from a lesser-known school can get a job on Wall Street. However, it is 100x easier to come from a targeted university. FACT. Look at any FT or SA resume book and you will see how lopsided the numbers are of "targets v. non-targets." </p>

<p>For example due to the credit crunch, firms cut back significantly on their recruiting events at their targets; what I am saying is FT recruiting this fall was absolutely terrible for the most targeted universities. So what do you think that meant for non-targets? Exactly. </p>

<p>We can sit here and talk about how anyone who is talented can make their way to Wall Street but at the end of the day it is still a field that is rather exclusive (some would argue elitist), and a student would be wise to go to a target.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>FACT? Do YOU have factual evidence that it is 100x easier to come from a targeted university. </p>

<p>FACT? What "FT or SA resume book" can YOU ffer that you will show how lopsided the numbers are of "targets v. non-targets." And, for that matter, is there a factual definition of what represents "targets v. non-targets."</p>

<p>Seems like the IB firewater well is not about to run dry in some parts of the country.</p>

92

<p>
[quote]
FACT? Do YOU have factual evidence that it is 100x easier to come from a targeted university.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please. You yourself know that is merely an expression for "way easier"</p>

<p>
[Quote]
FACT? What "FT or SA resume book" can YOU ffer that you will show how lopsided the numbers are of "targets v. non-targets."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Lehman Brothers
Goldman Sachs
Morgan Stanley</p>

<p>Someone already asked me to post some stuff from it, and I said I would when I get back from vacation.</p>

<p>Why don't YOU offer something that shows it is not lopsided.</p>

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<p>Majayiduke09,</p>

<p>Do these "FT/SA resume books" show only those that work at the same NYC offices you worked at?? I am just wondering if some of the CC posters act like there's no position outside of NYC.</p>

94

<p>Sam Lee,</p>

<p>It varies.</p>

<p>For example, the Lehman S&T has only the NYC office, but its IBD one has NYC and regional offices (i.e. Menlo Park, Chicago, LA, etc)</p>

<p>So you are right when you say NW may very well work in Chicago offices more so.</p>

<p>EDIT: </p>

<p>Sam, Quick Question: When do NW students get out for summer?</p>

95

<p>First week of June. Why?</p>

<p>Well, I am just getting mixed messages: some said they are well-recruited while others said they have hardly seen any on the street. But based on what I found from NU and couple IB firms' websites and consider how highly ranked their econ program is, the latter seems hard to believe. Fed</a> Challenge Team Places Third in National Competition, NewsCenter, Northwestern University shows another example of NU grads going into IB.</p>

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<p>I think "hardly" is definitely an exaggeration. I met a good number of Northwestern students and graduates (from undergrad and Kellogg) over the summer from various firms.</p>

<p>I asked, because I was trying to figure out which Term most NW kids would have been in NYC for the Lehman SA program.</p>

97

<p>Actually I made a mistake; they get out in the 2nd week of June (I forgot about the exam week).</p>

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<p>the_prestige,</p>

<p>actually elsijfdl didn't pull that list out of thin air. it's from vault's website and it came out about 4 years ago. <a href="http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=252&article_id=14364421&cat_id=1223%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=252&article_id=14364421&cat_id=1223&lt;/a>. but it doesn't matter since apparently, it looks outdated or inaccurate according to the two links you provided.</p>

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<p>yes, Sam, the silence from elsijfdl speaks for itself.</p>

<p>people should actually take a good hard look at what they are posting before they either pass it off as fact or vouch for it. and, further, when they get called on it, they should be man enough to own up to it.</p>

<p>if he would have just said, "oops, looks like that information is either outdated or erroneous" -- I would have easily just said, "hey, no harm, no foul"</p>

100

<p>"Way to be wrong, big guy. GS takes more SA than Lehman and Citi, especially after their profits stemming from the credit crisis (while LB didn't suffer significantly, Citi did). "Ignored by others who take very few students...GS"? Where the hell did you get that from"</p>

<p>Openingdoors, </p>

<p>I am not talking about their overall summer analyst class ...the comment which is next to stern refers to STERN. I am talking about banks that recruit at Stern....LB by far takes the most SA from Stern (they have a really good relationship with the school and career services) followed by Citi...while GS and MS take a much smaller amount.
How do i know? i have SA resume books from the last 2 yrs from MS, GS, LB and HSBC..</p>

<p>[Removed]"GS takes more SA than Lehman and Citi, especially after their profits stemming from the credit crisis (while LB didn't suffer significantly, Citi did)"</p>

<p>[Removed] "especially after their profits stemming from the credit crisis"... [Removed] ...GS is not going to take much more summer analysts than it took in previous years...that b/c they are extremely selective....LB takes by far the most SA ....b/c literally all of their FULL TIME bankers cames from their SA program...its a system they have been using for a while...and CITI takes ALLLLLOOOTTT of SA...there the biggest bank</p>

<p>Moderator's Note: Please keep the posts civil. </p>