<p>Quote:
**Originally Posted by SteveMA
Sounds like a Liberal Arts College would be a better fit for her then a university since she may find that she can’t take the double major/minor combo easily at a university.
Not necessarily. It depends on how extensive the major and breadth requirements are at the school, which is independent of whether the school is a LAC or research university.
**
LACs are likely to be poor fits for this student because she appears to be at least two years ahead in math and will likely exhaust the math offerings at a LAC, and will probably want to take graduate courses and do graduate level research as an undergraduate.</p>
<p>If a PhD program in math is a possible destination, it may be worth PMing a poster named b@r!um about what schools may be good for that. "</p>
<p>Thank you for the suggestion. B@rium had helped me out in the past with info on doctorate programs, and I learned a lot. Hopefully he’ll see this thread, or I’ll send him a PM.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus–she is not 2 years ahead in math and that was my original point. The math courses taken for an AA are often offered as a regular high school course in pretty much every high school around here…now in CA, that is a different story where you have stated in the past that most kids in CA don’t take any calculus in high school, but in other parts of the country that just is not true. In our area the classes taken at a community college would be a step down from what they get in high school.</p>
<p>SoMuch2Learn–the above applies to you as well, don’t count on her AA meaning all that much at most schools, not just MIT but pretty much every average or better college out there. Notre Dame, for example, won’t take ANY of your DD’s credits from her community college so she would need to take those all over again. Now, taking the classes now is still a good idea because they do help on the SAT/ACT. I would also caution you not to get your hopes up on highly selective schools like Notre Dame and Holy Cross until you know her test scores. There are plenty of 4.0’s out there that get 24 on the ACT–not saying your DD will but it is an important number to know. Our high school has the kids take the PLAN test along with the PSAT as sophomores so they have a good baseline score to look at when they start searching for colleges. Have her take an online ACT or SAT. Don’t worry too much about timing it now but just get a baseline score.</p>
<p>I just looked up the course offerings at our son’s potential very small LAC and the base courses are identical to those taught at MIT. With the required courses for a math degree with a concentration in actuarial science and the core class requirements, there is no way he could take all the courses offered in the department in 4 years. </p>
<p>Unless her ultimate plan is to get a PhD in Math then in order to get the double major she wants she is going to need to look at LAC’s.</p>
<p>Where is “here”, and what percentage of students take multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations in high school? Nationwide, the percentage of high school students taking calculus BC is about 2.6%, and only half of those score a 5. If we assume that a subset of the 5-on-BC scorers are the ones taking more advanced math in high school, then that is fewer than 1.3% of the total high school students, or fewer than 4% of those bound for four year colleges. That is probably insufficient student demand to support having those courses at high schools other than a few academically elite ones.</p>
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<p>Note that a school’s policy on credit units for community college courses is not necessarily the same as that for subject credit and placement based on them. For example, sbjdorlo’s son got placement into more advanced math courses at MIT based on community college courses taken earlier (he did have to show them the syllabus and other course information for each course).</p>
<p>Also, students who took multivariable calculus, etc. as high school courses may be less likely to get credit than those who took them as actual college courses. The community college courses have to at least be accepted by the state flagship universities so that community college students can transfer in as juniors to the state flagship universities.</p>
<p>The OP said she isn’t considering MIT so your point is moot. She did say she is considering Notre Dame and Notre Dame does NOT accept community college credits at all.</p>
<p>The OP hasn’t said what classes her DD has taken either.</p>
<p>Notre Dame does have credit by examination for placement into higher level math courses:
[The</a> First Year of Studies // University of Notre Dame](<a href=“University of Notre Dame”>University of Notre Dame)</p>
<p>Notre Dame also does accept a limited amount of transfer credit from other colleges.</p>
<p>So it is not a given that the student will have to wastefully repeat what she already learned if she attends Notre Dame. (Indeed, the use of such placement tests is probably the best indicator of whether repeating or moving on is the best for a particular student.)</p>
<p>ucbalumnus–did you READ your link? The placement at ND is to place into specific Calculus classes, that is IT. Nothing beyond that. They do NOT take college credits for dual enrollment AT ALL, NONE. The only credits they might take are taken senior year or later and then only up to 3 classes and NEVER in your major. We were told this SEVERAL times when we visited Notre Dame and at the info sessions we attended.</p>
<p>I had no idea this would be controversial. All opinions are valid.</p>
<p>Ucbalumnus, she’s not interested in our state’s schools, so any she applies to she’d be doing so as an OOS student. We’ve just recently begun to consider state schools as I had assumed that they wouldn’t offer enough merit/financial aid.</p>
<p>As far as her math/science courses, she’ll probably have completed Calc I, II and III, Differential, Discrete, Statistics, calc based physics I and II, and possibly Linear Algebra. I tend to think that the courses offered at our community college are more rigorous than the majority of the AP courses. For one, the content is thoroughly covered in half the time. These are not easy courses by any standards and all are accepted in state. With some stipulations, ND does give credit for some college courses already taken while in high school. </p>
<p>Her scores should be at least what I posted. It’s been a few years since she’s taken the ACT or the SAT. Unfortunately, the math she’s doing now, other than developing deeper thinking, isn’t helpful for the standardized tests. Algebra and geometry were taken a long time ago.</p>
<p>On the Notre Dame admissions chat they have this to say:</p>
<p>"My school has a program in which seniors can ride a shuttle to the University of Incarnate Word and take classes that have dual credit. However, they say that only some colleges accept the college credit. What is Notre Dame’s policy on accepting credit for college classes taken during high school?</p>
<p>ND Admissions</p>
<p>Thanks for your question, Mallory! We will accept college credit if it the class is taken on a college campus, taught by a college professor, and does not count towards any high school graduation requirement."</p>
<p>Those are the stipulations I had mentioned.</p>
<p>I will state it one more time, be careful with math classes. I STRONGLY suggest you contact some professors at the colleges she has on her list now to see what they say. DS was contemplating taking Stats an multi-variable this year and ALL of the profs at the schools he is considering suggested he NOT take those classes as he would have to retake them in college anyway…feel free to listen to ucbalumnus if you want but his views are based solely on websites he finds on google. The ONLY way ND takes college classes taken while in high school is if they don’t count for credit at the high school and they only take 3 classes total and NONE in her major so NONE of her math classes will transfer for her major.</p>
<p>My son took calculus in high school and got a 5 on the AP, but he and most other students took it over again in college. Since math classes are foundational (build on one another) it is possible that the student will need to repeat some math classes that are taught in sequence, so that the college’s particular curriculum is followed. Whether or not this is required isn’t the whole point: it may be optional but a very, very good idea to repeat.</p>
<p>Smith? May not be sufficiently Catholic, and Creative Writing is subsumed within the English department. The math offerings appear to have plenty of depth, and assume that some students will place out of the 3 foundational courses (only one of which I think your D is likely to have taken [ETA: all three of which your D will have taken]). Plus you’ve got the Five College Consortium if you need more depth.</p>
<p>Test-optional (so less of a concern if your D doesn’t test well, for whatever reason), nearly need-blind, meets full need, flexible curriculum, 45% acceptance rate makes it a decent match for a high GPA kid taking advanced classes.</p>
<p>I’d consider taking the January or March SAT. The guaranteed merit money is very numbers-driven, and it’ll give you a better idea of what her options are there, and how reach-y the meets-full-need schools are. It also gives her more flexibility to retake if needed.</p>
<p>Talent search kid? Have her go through a couple of practice tests as a refresher, and take them “for real” earlier, rather than later, unless she’s got so much on her plate that she can’t squeeze in time to brush up now. Particularly in light of your statement that she doesn’t think she’s MIT material - the results might adjust her attitude.</p>
<p>Be aware that putting all 48 states on the table likely means covering all travel costs associated with attending a school either a significant distance or a complicated, expensive route away. It can get costly to travel back and forth, store things in the summer if needed, etc.</p>
<p>Also, some schools are likely to involve apartment living eventually and it is good to consider the over all cost of living wherever a student with limited resources might attend. This isn’t necessarily a limiting factor, just a calculation that should be done. I could have stomached a lot of travel expenses for the right school, particularly if a full ride was involved, but YMMV. Good luck with the search for your capable student, who is likely to have good options.</p>
<p>I suggest Varnard w/axis to Columbia for graduate math classes. They are need blind, meets full need with very strong creative writing. I am sure Columbia has an active Catholic organization.</p>
Similar situation at Carnegie Mellon. Freshman are given a math placement test and placed appropriately. If they’ve forgotten the material in BC Calc, yep they have to retake it, but if they haven’t they can move on. My son had had a year of Linear Algebra and would have been extremely cross if he’d had to repeat Calculus. The notion that all students should repeat math classes they’ve already had baffles me. The OP’s daughter sounds like someone who will have significant math under her belt, not someone who spent a whole year on one semester’s worth of material which is what so many high schools do.</p>
<p>I can’t suggest specific school names though I agree U of Rochester also occurred to me and will likely be a match, possibly close to a safety. I know a while back there was a poster here with an interest in creative writing/comp sci and linguistics who had Carnegie Mellon on her list. (She ended up at Swarthmore - she eliminated some colleges for not having creative writing departments open to genre fiction and she really wanted a smaller school.) I think most midsize research universities will meet the OP’s daughter’s needs, some but probably not all LACs, some but not all tech schools. I can’t think of a school except some dominated by other religions that won’t have some sort of Catholic students organization.</p>
<p>So what she needs is some decisions about what to eliminate - urban, rural, suburban? how much Greek life? defined campus? preppy or granola? and I always forget to mention it, but what you can afford is important. If she scores well the smaller tech schools are likely to offer her merit aid.</p>
<p>Given that the family can afford $0 (or perhaps whatever the cost of food and utilities that the student would not use at home if she went outside of commuting range), the most important criteria besides academic offerings have to be cost, financial aid, and scholarships.</p>
<p>SteveMA thank you for the information. It seems that their reply on the admissions chat was far from complete. It also concerns me that they limit it to three classes after junior year, and there’s no mention for those taken in the junior year or earlier. Soon D will need to contact ND and others to get information specific to her situation.</p>
<p>Ucbalumnus I noticed the placement tests for Calc I, II and III also. </p>
<p>Compmom I agree that it can be a very good idea for students who took Calc AB to start at the beginning of the calculus sequence in university. I’m sure that my D will talk with the math department at whatever school she attends to decide the best course of action.</p>
<p>Allyphoe thank you for the suggestion. We’ll look into Smith. The test scores mentioned should be accurate as minimums but we’ll know better after the test in spring. If she needs to raise her scores, she can take them again in the fall. We’re trying to minimize the amount of money we have to give to the CB. I had her take them a few years ago out of curiosity, for practice with standardized testing, and for possible placement into some of the programs available. Honestly, I haven’t looked at MIT much yet and need to see if they provide some of her areas of study. If it looks good, then she can look into it further.</p>
<p>Just lost an almost completed post, so this is going to be an abbreviated version.</p>
<p>Travelnut, thank you and we’ll take that into consideration when it comes time for D to narrow down her options. For the right fit, we’d make it work.</p>
<p>Mythmom, thank you for suggesting Barnard. Would you recommend applying to Columbia as well, or is Barnard’s creative writing program that exceptional? Would Barnard be less of a reach than Columbia?</p>
<p>Mathmom, yes Carnegie Mellon is on D’s list. Greek life likely won’t be D’s focus, but it’s okay if there’s some on campus. She’d like an active residential campus, but location doesn’t matter to her. For urban locations especially, a defined campus would be nice. A mix of preppy and granola would be nice. lol Ucbalumus is right that financial aid is critical. Will definitely look into U of Rochester. </p>
<p>Allyphoe, I just found this info. Maybe she’ll be looking into MIT, but it would definitely be a reach.</p>
<p>"More than half of all MIT undergraduates enroll in arts courses each yearover a third of them in music classesand many major or minor in arts-related subjects. MIT’s arts faculty includes eminent artists such as Pulitzer Prize recipients composer John Harbison and writer Junot Díaz, as well as composer and musician Evan Ziporyn and visual artist Renée Green.</p>
<p>I had no idea about MIT’s offerings. Yes, I’ll have to look into the waiver. Thank you.</p>