Pleeeease Help Us Decide!!!

<p>sybbie
According to the Dean of Admissions, you can take a lot of non-business classes if you are at Stern. They actually require you to take a minimum of 18 credits at CAS, but you may also minor at CAS, and starting this year, do a second major at CAS. There are definitely some interesting possibilities, like neural science, international relations etc. for the second major, while doing a finance or economics major at Stern.</p>

<p>For some reason, all for her friends are putting down business undergrad, as being the non-intellectual path. Somehow I see the possibilities as endless.</p>

<p>ec1234
Thanks for your input. Sometimes it takes an 'outsider' to see certain things.
jack
I do know from our exchanges, that you are also a fan of UNC. UNC's Med School and Law school are well known, however, once again they have the quots system, and only 20 out-of-ststers can get into their Medical program. Doing undergrad at UNC does not give you a boost.</p>

<p>Such wonderful and diverse choices. It is going to be difficult but the good news is that it will be win, win win. I am very familiar with JHU and UChicago, and I can tell you that both schools are very directed in terms of kids know what they want. Neither are schools that I would suggest for someone who is not really into delving deeply into academia. Though Hopkins in the springtime is beautiful and the lacrosse games have as much spirit as any sports, the school tends to have smart, directed students. Any kids with some slacking plans in the works will not even direct a look at either JHU or Chicago as the reputations are well deserved. But if that is really what your daughter wants, she should go for it. I am going to assume her stats are outstanding and that she is a-araring to go as far as hard work and focus is concerned for either of those schools. Stern is also directed but in a different way and again the environment is as different as can be from either Hopkins or Chicago. No real campus , no rah, rah . If she wants the traditional college experience, more like that you relate to State U, UNC would be the best choice, then Hopkins, then Chicago and then Stern. Because it really comes down to environment as all these schools are excellent and your D is not set on any discipline that would make one a better choice than the other. Business is not offered at Chicago or JHU, neuroscience is really Hopkins' thing, and despite Hopkins' claim of 100% med school placement, the culling is a real factor there and it happens well before anyone applies to med school so that % is useless. Neither school is really a top choice for someone who does not want to be focused on working very, very hard, as the grade curves are steep. If she is unsure of what she wants to do, but knows that she wants to enjoy the university life and does not want to accelerate in school work, UNC is probably the choice. I am not as certain about Stern because I don't know how easily she can sample CAS courses at NYU from there, but unless it gives her lots of flexibility, I would think that it is too narrow a focus for a student who is not yet sure of the course of study. My gut says UNC on the basis of very little info. I feel that the campus life should be a big factor in her choice. I think UNC would give her the most flexibility on what her next step should be which may well be any of the other three schools.
However, it is really the environment she likes the best, where she would like to make her home that is the most important factor in this case. Congrats to her on having such a wonderful spread of choices.</p>

<p>culling, jamimim? That's what our township does when we are overrun by deer. But I needed to hear that from someone, and I wish schools did not go around saying they had 100% acceptance rates....it can be very deceiving.
Fortunately daughter does not have 'slacking plans' in the works, that we know of. Chicago and JHU were both schools that she selected and applied to, after much reading. So I am confident that she knows what it entails.</p>

<p>That is what schools (like Hopkins) do when they are overrun by premeds. The premed gauntlet is pretty tough there. </p>

<p>I think in her case with such broad interest and no certainty in direction, she should simply pick the best environment and atmosphere for her. Having lived near Homewood Campus and in Hyde Park, I can tell you that the former is more enjoyable to me in my book. For the ultimate city type, NYU cannot be beat, but for kids who do want that contained campus, it is very disconnected and not what they want for college. Those issues can be very important on a day to day basis, more important than the academics which she will find at any of the schools being the type of student she is .</p>

<p>chocoholic: Interesting about the quota system for UNC med school, and that a UNC undergraduate degree doesn't give you a boost there. Never heard that.</p>

<p>jamimom: Let me see if I have this straight...if a kid is unsure about what he/she wants to do, wants to enjoy the "university life," and perhaps even has "slacking plans" in order, and--oh yes-- has no desire to "accelerate" in school work (whatever that means), then UNC should be her choice? Did I read that correctly? I don't know, jamimom. I find those such odd statements, that I wouldn't even know how to begin to respond. So I think I'll have a quiet laugh and move on.</p>

<p>No insults intended, jack. I happen to hold UNC in the highest regard, and it is tops on my middle son's list for a number of reason and slacking is not on it at all. And this is with a family affilation with Duke! I meant things much more positively than I guess it came out. Hopkins and Chicago are academic sweatshops by definition, and I would think long and hard about sending any kid there. We spent many years with both schools as H was a postgrad and we owe both schools gratitude since it is the wonderful education and special store of knowledge that he got from them that makes him so marketable. But having seen many top student culled from the crowd at both schools that could have easily made it at less rigorous schools, I do exercise caution in recommending either school. The very directed student seems to do much better there. In recommending UNC to Chocoholic's D, it is really a compliment to the college as I do recognize that she is a top student to get into the choices she did, and I feel she can get the academic challenge there and have a more well rounded, "typical" college life. In Berurah's thread that is basically Duke vs JHU, I was saying that there are more slackers at Duke than at Hopkins. By no means was I saying that Duke is a slacker school. I know well that Duke is one of the finest schools in the country, would love to send any of my kids there, and most kids and famiies would give their eyeteeth for a spot there. But a kid can get through Duke and UNC on a track that simply does not exist at Hopkins or Chicago. Mainly because of the very high level of athetics coupled with a low academic requirements for those athletes at those schools. By simply shadowing those students in courses, you can get by at those schools without having to break into an academic sweat, particularly if you are a non athletic admit. Though Hopkins is D-1 for Lacrosse and has football, and U of Chicago has football, their top athletes have quite a different academic profile from top D-1 schools. Duke and UNC are more fun schools in my book, and the atmosphere there is quite different from Uof Ch and JHU. It is so difficult to try to get these impressions of schools to those asking without insulting someone in the process. There are a lot of schools I do not know well on these boards, but in the case of U of Ch, JHU and Duke, these are schools that I know very well. I have a lot of respect for all of those schools and in different cases would recommend any one of them to someone, but for U of Ch and JHU, there are some caveats because of the atmosphere there. Of course each student should ideally visit the school and feel it out for himself, as kids have walked onto Chicago's campus and said, "I am home." Or one stroll through Greenwich village and said, "This is for me". Or the other way around--they are out of there. It seems like Choco's D is one of those kids that are flexible and could be happy anywhere, so it is more finding a good fit. But expert slackers can sniff UChicago and JHU a mile away and are not likely to bother to apply there. And by slackers, I do not mean someone who CAN'T do the work. I have mentioned before that slacking is a big male trait in our family, so I know it well. My brother is the biggest, smartest slacker I have ever met. They will apply to HPY before they apply to Cornell, Penn, JHU and avoid U of Chicago and any school with "tech" in the name like the plague. You can slack at certain very selective schools and still get by if you are smart and already well educated but there are some places that even then you have to hustle. Those schools with a touch of slacker (not a big dose) are the among the most highly desired in the country, as they are considered high in the quality of life area and best in overall college experience. So in recommending UNC, I am not putting down UNC in the least or not recognizing the fact that this is someone who researched, applied to and was accepted to two very academically strenuous schools. I am afraid that Choc too might have taken things that way too, as though I think his daughter would be culled. Not at all. But I can tell that it is a rare UNCer that will not be wildly successful who was considered U of Ch and JHU material. Lots of JHU and Uof Ch material do not do so well at those schools when they get there because they are tough schools, the competition is stiff and the grading scale is considered on the steepest curves.</p>

<p>"I know how strongly you feel about UNC..."</p>

<p>I do feel strongly about UNC but you should also understand my perspective. Last year when we began the application process the short list became, in order, Yale, Amherst, Pomona, Dartmouth, Wash U, Stanford and either UVA or UNC. After being nominated for the Morehead by his school, UNC became the lone public school on his list. As you can see, either of the publics were very different in just about every way possible from any other school on his list.</p>

<p>In order to develop his short list we had visited and toured all the East coast schools along with Brown, Penn, Swarthmore and Williams, stopped by Harvard while in Boston just to see it since he had no interest and had also done a midwest swing, visiting Wash U, Northwestern and U Chicago. He visited Pomona on his own and only saw UNC at finalists weekend.</p>

<p>Everything that he and we believed about the "perfect" school for him led us to this list. After being accepted to Yale SCEA he withdrew his apps from Dartmouth, Amherst and Pomona. By then he was also aware that he was a finalist for the Morehead and honestly felt that IF he won the Morehead his choice would most likely be between UNC and Yale. In all honesty, we probably would have never even seriously considered a school like UNC had it not been for the Morehead nomination. When it was time to make a decision among others he had Yale, Wash U with a scholarship, and UNC with the Morehead to choose from.</p>

<p>This is a kid who thrived in the most difficult and challenging classes his school offered, who hated playing the game and truly loved learning for learning's sake. </p>

<p>Initially he really felt that he wanted the intimacy that a smaller school offered which is why Stanford was last among the schools on his list and the thought of a big time athletic program was absolutely the last thing on his mind to the extent that the way the tour guide at Northwestern kept talking about Big Ten football and "how being in the stadium for games with Ohio State and Michigan were things not to be missed" really turned him off.</p>

<p>To see him as happy as he is with his decision to attend UNC and literally EVERYTHING about his experience there is truly a wonder to behold. We lost a lot of sleep before and after he made his decision. Before because WE (parents) weren't ready to give up OUR dream of him attending Yale, and after because we were so afraid we would hear him say he made a mistake. </p>

<p>He and I had a conversation about that very topic at Christmas and he told me to put it to rest. He loves UNC, has a large circle of "amazing" friends, his classes are great, intellectually stimulating, the profs are not only accessible but go out of their way to get to know students hosting picnics and events at their homes, the campus is beautiful and Chapel Hill isn't called Chapel Thrill for nothing...it is perhaps the quintessential college town. In all he is as jamimom and others here have described "enjoying university life" and having the time of his life along with it. </p>

<p>Yes the Morehead has enhanced his experience but other than the financial aspect, it is NOT an everyday enhancement. Most people aren't even aware he is one because as a whole they are pretty low key about being Moreheads. The honors program IS however certainly a plus and something that has allowed and enabled him to come into contact with all the "amazing" people that he talks about. There are a lot of very bright people there. Many have turned down Ivies and other "elite" schools by accepting scholarships and others have merely recognized the value that it offers.</p>

<p>Monday night there were 45,000 people on Franklin St until about 4AM. The police described them as " well behaved kids just enjoying themselves and having fun." When it was over the police said "see you next year" which is a far cry from what happened in East Lansing and other places. He was among the crowd, calling us from the "Dean Dome" during the game and IMing us afterwards.This from a kid who twelve months ago had no idea who Dean Smith was!</p>

<p>His away message yesterday said it all: "here i am 24 plus hours later....i could be freezing my *** off at some school in the northeast or here still basking in it all and trying to take it all in.....i'm so glad i'm a tarheel!"</p>

<p>I can only speak to UChicago from your list. It is an amazing environment in a great city. The famous Chicago "Core" sets the world standard for undergraduate education. It is no surprise Princeton Review ranks the school as #1 in the nation for best academic experience. The campus is great, but does get cold in the winter. The students are fun, but very serious when it comes to academics. The faculty is awsome; the school has been associated with more Nobel prize winners than any other school in America. Intellectually, it is rigorous, with no grade inflation, which is why it is considered by many to be in a class of its own.</p>

<p>idad: Our daughter was accepted to Chicago as well, and I have no doubt she would absolutely thrive and do well there (well...except possibly for those winters). Unfortunately, Chicago is not great with financial aid. In fact, it was only one of 2 schools (out of 7) that did not give her any aid at all, except for the $1,000 for NMF. And as I've mentioned before, that, too, was--in part--based on need. Even Duke gave her aid, and I believe Chicago and Duke are very comparable in cost. Perhaps that's simply a difference in endowment or real desire to have the student there(?). Six of the top students from her school were accepted to Chicago this year, and I have no doubt each would also do very well there. Only two are going, however. The decision for the other 4 was based on lack of aid. And when I mean lack of aid, I mean zero aid. </p>

<p>We are absolutely willing to sell our house (which is what going to Chicago would require), or dipping into retirement to send her to Chicago--or anywhere she'd like to go, for that matter. We really have no problem doing that, and she knows it. But what she (and I) can't seem to get past, is paying full freight--when some other student(s), perhaps not as stellar(?), receives aid. Call some of it merit if you will; however, at Chicago, the ultimate decision is also based on financial need. I find that practice less than honest. Merit should be merit (non-need based) aid; financial need should be just that: need-based. There's a reason aid is always classified separately like that.</p>

<p>Although I am not the original poster who is trying to decide among 3 great, though very different, schools, I just thought I'd add why my daughter (who made the decision herself) chose not to go Chicago. She also feels that she is being 'punished' to some degree, simply because her parents are educated and happen to have done okay for themselves--well, not badly enough to get aid, but not wealthy enough to come up with $160,000+. Ultimately, her feeling was that she might arrive at a campus (Chicago or the other school that gave her zero aid), and--over 4 years-- become a little bitter about paying full freight and, essentially, also paying (in part) someone else's way--who, in fact, may not even be as outstanding a student as she. I can understand that feeling, though my spouse says we need to "get over that." </p>

<p>Anyway...there you have it. That's our perspective. Perhaps it might help, or simply muddy the waters, for Chocoholic or anyone else trying to make a decision. Chicago and UNC-CH are two admittedly very different schools, with obviously vastly different reputations; however, our daughter is incredibly self-motivated and fairly brilliant. (Wow..how's that for proud?). Consequently, we know she will do remarkably well anywhere. And when I mean "do well," I really mean that she will seize opportunities and take advantage of all the great aspects and offerings of her outstanding state university--just as much as she would do at any school. Also, having traveled quite a bit when she was younger, she has experienced private ('independent') schools in top cities, and she's experienced big public magnet schools in, well, not the greatest areas of town. And I can tell you, the big public magnet schools come out on top, every time, in every regard--from challenging academics, to the art programs, to diversity (kids literally from all over the world), to a superior peer group--hands down. Now that's high school, but I've got a sense that she's gonna do fine without the private school price tag (at least for undergraduate). </p>

<p>And, obviously, I believe that many students who are of the caliber that apply to and are accepted by the likes of Chicago, will thrive pretty much anywhere.</p>

<p>jack
Did your daughter visit Chicago, or was her decision based on the fact that she did not get any merit money from them?</p>

<p>Chocoholic: She had a wonderful interview with an alum here--really enjoyed it--and Chicago, for a long time, was definitely at the top of her list. Her plan was to go out in April (coming up?). We will probably still fly out there, because I think it would be good for her to visit and see for herself. She may just get out there, walk on the campus, and decide 'whew..dodged a bullet there..this really isn't for me.' Or not. On some level, too, I think she also wants to have some fun in college, and I think she also worries--mainly based on what everyone says--that fun (seriously) might be lacking at Chicago. More than that, I think she has realized, too, that she'd like to be in a place--and I think this has been discussed a lot, at least on the Chicago site--that will give her more of an all around university experience. And that doesn't mean drinking and partying--neither of which she does. So we probably will encourage her to fly out there.</p>

<p>Also, it wasn't just lack of merit money; indeed, it was lack of ANY money.. I gather Chicago's endowment just isn't that large, and what they do have is not designated very heavily for scholarships(?). You'd think all those folks who graduate from there and go on to make big bucks in banking (or whatever field it was people talked about here), would endow a few scholarships...</p>

<p>jack
Navigating the Chicago website, I found a page that showed the number of incoming freshmen receiving financial aid (need-based), and I was astounded....it seemed like 80%. So I just cannot understand why they would not give the merit $$ to those who were outstanding without being in need also. Maybe, as you say, the alumni assoc. is not strong, and $$ does not come in from the i-bankers.
We are going next week, and decide after that.</p>

<p>Chocoholic: Good luck, and I'll be interested to hear about your daughter's experiences/perceptions of the University. </p>

<p>I'm also intrigued by the colleges that list the "average freshman grant" which always seems to hover around the $25,000 mark. On one hand, we're really impressed with ourselves now, because we didn't know we were so damn wealthy, and--on the other hand-- doubly impressed by all the incredibly brilliant but obviously poverty-stricken folks out there.</p>

<p>Jack, congratulations to your daughter's terrific acceptances. I have no doubt that kids who are accepted to school like U of Ch will do well nearly anywhere, though they do not always do well at U of Ch. Chicago does not use its merit scholarships for need, though it does not use a numerical stats basis for awarding them, so that kids who get the awards are not necessarily the top gpa and test scorers. I have known a number of the recipients of the merit award who did not qualify or even apply for aid--one a Rockefellow scion. Those merit awards go to the kids that the school wants the most regardless of need or academic stats, though I will say that I have not known one who did not have a fantastic academic profile. They also give 100% of need--and are need blind in admissions one of a minority of schools in this country that fall in this category. What must have happened to you is that you did not meet their definition of need, as they do not use FAFSA alone in determining it. If your D is truly interested in the school and it is the lack of a package that has moved her away from this choice, you may want to request a reasoning as to why the Chicago EFC is so high since you did qualify for financial aid from Duke and other like schools. Although I have seen little gain in negotiations for more money, there have been a few cases that I have known where a simple question like this uncovers a mistake in the forms or the calculations in which case the numbers are changed. </p>

<p>One problem with schools like Uof Chicago and JHU is that the emphasis is more on the graduate school and research than on resources for undergraduates, something these schools have been trying to change image wise, but have been largely unsuccessful because the truth of the matter is that the big money, what really count comes in from the efforts of ther graduate and postgraduate research. For graduate school and further research, these schools are unparalleled and the knowledge gained from the time spent their in graduate studies is pure gold. You are right on the leading edge of research. But for someone taking Macro or Freshman Chem in a big lecture hall, it is not going to be such an advantage over any other school, and for some kids that want some more fun and nurturing, it can be a problem.</p>

<p>jamimom: Thanks so much and also for the information here. What you say somewhat confirms our take on Chicago as well.</p>

<p>As for merit money, yes I know that this is based on merit...but I do believe they then look at need. Are you positive they don't? I'm not saying they are not choosing those merit applicants based on merit. Of course they are, but I am saying that once they cull those for merit aid, I believe they then look at their finances to help them make those final decisions. There are many reasons I believe this, which I won't go into on this post.. </p>

<p>Also thanks for the information on the graduate school emphasis (for resources). That makes sense. Seems like a terrific place for graduate school, then. We'll keep it in mind, for sure.</p>

<p>jamimom: Sorry..I just re-read your post and just want to say that I think, too, that students are often much happier at a place that they feel really wants them (i.e., gives merit aid or other incentives to have them there). There's a lot to be said for that.</p>

<p>Jack, we are in full agreement there. If you read my latest post to Berurah, that is essentially what I am saying to her. In the case of her son, I think JHU is the best choice because they want him enough to pay for him and they are not going to let that money lie fallow. Those kids will get some benefits being a merit recipient beyond the cash in research opportunities whereas the rest of the freshmen are going to have to figure it out themselves which does take some time. Not as simple as a sorting hat to be placed in a lab, on a project, with a prof. Gotta find the right one. Someone who has submitted research or a paper that has caught their eye is a year ahead of the game, because that's how much time it takes to sort things out. So it skips a lot of the hassle and uncertainty to be wanted and have the offers on the table. And for inside reasons, I do know that Chicago and Hopkins both do not use financial aid as basis or even a residual reason in giving out merit money though other controversial factors are taken into account. Though I can cite anecdotal examples of very wealthy families whose kids were offered the money, that is not why I am stating this. There is a lot of thought put into those awards in building a college community. Both Chicago and Hopkins uses preferential packaging in putting together financial aid awards so that there is a merit basis to them but that does not include using financial need as a factor for giving the awards except in the very rare case where that need is stand out reason for the merit, but even then it is not the need that comes into play. I say that because say a very need kid does some spectacular thing, it will psychologically have more of an impact than a Rockefellow scion doing the same thing, or a kid from a well known school and area with advantages.</p>

<p>My S. also received no aid from UChicago, nor did he from his (for now) second choice school (an expensive top LAC). He did get a large merit award from one of our very good in-state schools. Having been in this situation myself some years ago as a graduate student at Chicago, I found that a little friendly contact by parent and student (in my case it was only student) can have an effect. I received nothing my first year (loans), by year two, a tuition scholarship, and by year three, a full ride. Also, many of the merit offers will be turned down as the students go to other schools. If the equation tilts toward less money spent than was projected, it may be possible to shake a little loose. </p>

<p>Having said all of this, however, I, and the data from research, emphatically agree with you, where one goes to undergraduate school has little effect on future success. In the last ten years I have never been asked where I went to undergraduate school. This is not the case for my graduate work (Ph.D.), I am asked this on a regular basis for some reason. Even with graduate degrees, the importance of the "place" is more determined by the career chosen, than the actual school.</p>

<p>As for endowment size, I believe Chicago has the fourth largest in the country</p>

<p>idad: Yes..I think I mentioned to someone, perhaps pm'd the person--that I have no idea where my friends (including artists/teachers/professors/doctors/yoga instructor/construction worker/non-profit fundraiser) went to undergraduate school. And, certainly, in many fields--but especially in academia--it's the graduate school that truly 'counts.' In our experience, people want to know where the graduate degrees came from--no one ever asks about undergraduate..</p>

<p>When I mentioned Chicago's endowment (and I don't think it's the 4th largest in the country, is it?? I found a chart somewhere--I'll look again)...I meant relatively speaking, of course. You know.. $3 billion compared to $19 billion or $8 billion.. and even Brown's under $2 billion (is that current?) seems miniscule in comparison.. Regardless, as jamimom said, not sure that endowment is spent so much on undergraduates...</p>