<p>To avoid confusion, I am not a bigot, and I am generally open minded. In fact, I have a neighbor who is a fellow at the CATO Institute and I love debating with him economics (well I guess I just gave away where I stand). However, I don’t know why, but I simply cannot stand people who justify their political beliefs as “The Bible tells me so.” Even before I realized I was an atheist, I despised theocracy. Now I don’t mind people who give to charity because they think they will be rewarded for it after death, I am talking about social issues such as gay rights, woman’s rights etc. Now I don’t expect that to be an issue at Brandeis. Almost 50% of the student body is Jewish (I am partly Jewish myself. Grandfather on father’s side), who are generally a fairly liberal community. However, there is the issue of Israel. I don’t mind supporters of Israel, but I do mind supporters of messianic, illegal settlements. (Note that I said “messianic.” If someone wants to make a legal defense of the settlements, I would welcome such a debate. However, those who think God promised the Jews the entire area of Israel, therefore settlers can live there, legal or not, is a serious problem of cognitive dissonance, and if a majority on campus, or even a plurality, hold such a view, I would probably not be comfortable going there.)</p>
<p>Can any Brandies students comment on the state of such debate at Brandies?</p>
<p>Interesting. You begin by declaring that you are not a bigot and then proceed to establish quite clearly that, indeed, you are a bigot. You are, of course, entitled to your opinions but by stating essentially that you can’t stand people who accept the Bible as revealed truth–you are admitting to a prejudice against, frankly, the majority of people in America. You cannot accurately describe yourself as a liberal because you appear to be, in fact, very intolerant. </p>
<p>It appears that you very much need a good liberal arts education.</p>
<p>At Brandeis–you will find people with a wide range of views about a lot of things, including Israel and settlement activity. Pro Israel sentiments, not surprisingly, outweigh anti-Israel sentiments but both are easy to find. Also, while @50% of the undergraduates identify themselves as Jewish, their range of observance is quite wide–from purely secular to ultra orthodox. I would guess that the number of undergraduates who would justify building settlements in the West Bank solely because G-d gave the land to Jews as part of the Covenant is relatively small. I would also guess that the number of undergraduates who would cite the Bible as one of a number of considerations to justify settlement activity would be far greater.</p>
<p>These other considerations are many, including: the Balfour Declaration; the treaty which, at the end of WWI, created the British Mandate over Palestine; the fact that, under international law, the West Bank is not occupied territory but rather disputed territory (i.e., the Palestinians never had soverignty over it; the Israelis captured it from Jordan in 1967 but Jordan has relinquished any claim to the territory); the Oslo Accords, which created the peace process, do not prohibit building in the West Bank; and why should Palestinians expect to have a state which is free of Jews? Israel grants full citizenship rights to over 1 million Muslim Arabs. Personally, I believe that these considerations are more important than the Biblical claim (the Bible is not a land deed) but I also don’t think you can ignore the Bible. Even if you don’t accept the Bible as revealed truth–both the Bible and archeology comfirm the history that this part of the Middle East was occupied by Jews for a very long time–and that the West Bank (or Judaea and Summara, to use the ancient names) was part of the ancient Jewish State.</p>
<p>Again, you are entitled to your opinion but I would hope that your opinion is formed only after an open-minded consideration of all of the facts and differing points of view.</p>
<p>Before I even read the rest of your response, I will respond to your first paragraph.</p>
<p>I never said that I can’t stand people who believe the Bible is true. I am pretty sure I said I can’t stand people who base their opinion of what the public law should be based on “The Bible tells me so.”</p>
<p>I am intolerant to theocracy and its supporters and ultra-nationalism to the point of plain bigotry and xenophobia (I would call it by the oxymoron of “Secular Theocrats,”.) Just as anyone would be intolerant of Nazis, the KKK, and other disgusting organizations and ideas.</p>
<p>To the accusation of that I am not open-minded. Most of the time, I am open minded. For example, would you sit and argue with someone who is arguing for the legality of public lynching of minorities, or just ignore the idiot? There are some issues and views that are nonnegotiable (different for each person, some are universal), and this applies to all of us. And this is OK as long as it does not lead to prejudicial hypocrisy.</p>
<p>And if you don’t mind if I ask you one more question about Brandeis (I am very sorry we got off to a bad start.). For example, where I live (New Jersey), whenever something happens in the Middle East, the flotilla attack for example, you will see Israel supporters in the street handing out literature. When I say “Sorry, I don’t support Israel.” I either get two responses. One being a very dirty look, and the other being “OK. Cool” (latter comes most often from high school and college students.). How would such a case play out in Brandeis?</p>
<p>At Brandeis you will probably get something between the two; A person who is a little ticked off trying to play it cool, maybe. You just need to remember that (since you live in Jersey) you have probably lived in a bubble your whole life, and if you decide to go to Brandeis, you will be entering an even bigger, less transparent bubble. There are definitely pro-whatever-Israel-does sentiments on campus, but its not overwhelming. I think your view of Brandeis is that when something goes down in the Middle East, everyone on campus is rioting and picketing and going nuts, when that’s just not how it is. Like I said, Brandeis, like many other schools, is in a huge bubble, and when things are happening in the outside world, it really doesn’t directly affect a lot of the students who are just so focused on school and whatnot. There are a few people who really (but not really) care what’s going on in the Middle East, but the majority could really care less. Besides, you shouldn’t base your school choice on whether or not the students are pro-Israel or not.</p>
<p>I’m a current Brandeis student so I will tell it to you straight up. </p>
<p>Nothing is in your face, or forced upon you. </p>
<p>If you’re against Israel’s settlements then there is a pretty large population of students who are part of Jewish Voices for Peace and Brandeis Students for Justice in Palestine. They recently held an entire week of events for their cause and concluded with Noam Chomsky speaking on campus. </p>
<p>The truth about Brandeis, which is what makes it such an amazing place, there is something for everyone. You can debate and discuss your views with a lot of different people with a lot of different opinions.</p>
<p>Mike – I don’t know what you have been exposed to that you can equate people who have a strong enough belief in the bible that it colors their view of public policy with Nazism and the KKK, but quite honestly, I find it sad as well as somewhat distressing. </p>
<p>People’s opinions on public matters are by definition shaped by their own moral compasses. For many in our country, that moral compass is set by their religion. We live in a democracy – people get to have all different opinions and seek to elect people who represent those opinions. The examples you gave are situations in which people try to impose their horrific views without regard to law or democratic process. And quite honestly, even they have a right to voice those views (with limitations on actually inciting violence)-- and we can choose not to try to engage them (as students at Brandeis chose when the Westboro church came to campus).</p>
<p>Wherever you attend college, you will find people with whom you fundamentally disagree. Not all of them will be able or willing to engage in an intellectual debate with you over their views – sometimes they just believe what they believe because they believe it. Whether the underpinning for the belief is religious or otherwise, they have a right to their beliefs. If that bothers you, its your choice not to engage with them. But if you are going to get angry and upset with them for not offering you a better debate, you are the one who will be creating the problem – not them.</p>
<p>Brandeis is known for its acceptance of varying views. As has been noted, there are groups on campus representing various positions on Israel. But along with those varying groups comes a respect for the existence of varying groups. There will be students who strongly support Israel. Will you dismiss their views as being theocracy if they wear a yarmulke and not listen to what else they might have to say? Will the fact that their belief in God influences their view of the world mean you can’t respect their view? </p>
<p>There is a sizable and noticeable Orthodox Jewish presence on campus. They are still a small minority of the student population, but because that minority is larger than on other campuses, it is still noticeable. There are also observant Jews of other denominations. Many of these students fashion their lives in certain ways because, yes, they do believe it is what God wants from them. You could easily go through your 4 years at Brandeis without any of that being an issue for you – unless you choose to make it an issue for yourself. If you cannot accept their right to feel this way, and if you would be so upset by the presence of such students, I think you should question whether your own intolerance (and sorry, but that’s what it is if you have such a strong reaction to others’ way of life) makes you suitable for a college that is known for its tolerance.</p>
<p>I just also want to add – you will probably find that people’s willingness to engage in debate will likely be directly related to the degree to which they perceive you to be truly open to debate – if you are willing to listen past the fact that religion may be a contributing factor to their beliefs, you will likely learn a lot more about what else they find supports those beliefs. and I am willing to bet that most Brandeis students with an interest in the issue (on whichever side they might be) will be able to offer an intelligent discourse.</p>
<p>First of all, when did I say I was anti-Israel? Did we all go to the Tom Danforth School of Politics or something. Is it are you with us or against us? In fact, even with the atrocities they have committed, they have, IMO, the best human rights record in thousands of miles. I could not imagine an openly gay person or an openly secular person, for example, in Iran or Syria. But when I went (dragged, actually.) to Israel for a relative’s wedding, I saw gay bars etc. I also supported Ariel Sharon’s decision to pull out of Gaza, which many people who label themselves “pro-Israel” did not. I am anti-theft, not anti-Israel.</p>
<p>I also think I was misunderstood when I compared fascism and Nazism to theocratic beliefs. What I meant was, if there are people who honestly think the public law, which applies to everyone, should have laws such as killing heretics and adulterers, I am sorry, but I will not respect that. I will have contempt for that. Now I don’t mind if they believe that one day God will come down to Earth and make this global version of North Korea a reality, but those who want it done against other people’s will is just disgusting. </p>
<p>For example, I agree with Karl Marx that if religion were abolished, it would be a great step for equality and emancipation (my view is open to change on this subject. I think Tony Blair made a good argument against this, but he was debating Christopher Hitchens, which means you lose no matter what). However, I only believe this to be true if people choose to give up religion, and not by force. I don’t wish to force the Marxist view on religion on people who don’t want it.</p>
<p>Do you see what I mean? You can think something, without wanting it to be implemented and just appreciate for what it is. An idea.</p>
<p>Many of our laws do in fact have their origins in religious norms – thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, laws against incest – they’re just ones you probably find more normative. Laws by definition restrict people’s free will – its the trade off we made for living in society – its a question of whether you view the restriction on free will as a legitimite exercise of government – and presumably in a democratic society, the instances where is isn’t are far less than in a non-democratic one. It seems more to me that you have a problem that when the result of the religious norm is one you object to, you find the religious underpinning offensive. </p>
<p>I think many people would agree that not everything they personally believe should become law. But that doesn’t mean that they should feel that nothing they personally believe should warrant becoming law. And each individual gets to decide for themselves, where that line it – if you don’t agree, that’s fine – but don’t delegitimize their right to draw that line differently than you would.</p>
<p>In your first post you referred to taking the position that “I don’t support Israel” – sorry if that led to a broader conclusion than you meant. Your rhetoric over the course of this thread seems to have calmed a bit – and I would hope you learn from that. If you open a debate by saying “I think this avenue of argument is completely illegitimate,” you make the debate about a lack of respect for the other person’s views – they won’t hear you any more than you hear them. A debate goes a lot further on both sides, if you can respect the other parties’ right to their position and listen. And I’ll add, equating another’s position with Nazism is a sure way to cut the debate very short.</p>
<p>This is just evolving into a private, political conversation (you can do it through PM). </p>
<p>To address the actual issue, Mike, you have nothing to worry about. Nothing is forced upon you, many students are passionate about different things, some are completely apathetic about different things. Just recently one student lead a charge that ended up with the entire school implementing cage free eggs. At Brandeis there is something for everyone.</p>