<p>My favorite argument for picking a major you actually like is that you'll actually enjoy studying for all the required classes, and you'll find it easier to do better in them because you won't mind doing homework.</p>
<p>I hate the ragging people do on Liberal arts. </p>
<p>I've seen only one person point this out, but it bears repeating: there's a sizeable percentage of the jobs chemistry, physics, math, and engineering majors get that are being outsourced to other countries. Why? BECAUSE OF THE MONEY. Companies can't afford to pay you guys who go to school, major in some tech, engineering, or natural science degree, then come out expecting to make $50k straight out of college. Yes, even you guys from Harvard, Yale, etc. They're being OUTSOURCED. </p>
<p>So the competition is going to stiffen for you guys in the next, oh, five to ten years, because there aren't a lot of jobs here. Then what? If I get some middling salaried job at a paper, or teaching, or <em>gasp</em>, law school...I could make just as much money as someone with a big-time engineering degree.</p>
<p>And the same thing that happened to Business majors (too many people going into it for the salary prospects) is eventually going to happen to engineering majors. It will probably take longer, because engineering is harder than business. But it's bound to happen when it comes with that $50k price tag a lot of entitled white guys, overly ambitious asian guys, and money hungry middle eastern guys wants.</p>
<p>First, a fascinating use of racial stereotypes to try and make your point.</p>
<p>Second, by your logic, people should always seek low-paying jobs on the logic that those are least likely to get outsourced.</p>
<p>First, it's not really a stereotype. I live near one of the biggest and best tech schools in country, and visit regularly. Outside their athletic teams, you'd be hard-pressed to find many Black or Hispanic (which I am) students there.</p>
<p>Second, no, I'm saying I don't see why people tongue bathe these high salaried jobs as being the only degrees worth getting. The duality with tech jobs, engineering jobs, etc etc is that while they are lucrative, they are easily outsourced by companies looking to cut down on expenses. While liberal arts jobs may be less lucrative, theoretically speaking, people in those fields don't have to worry about their job being outsourced.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I hate the ragging people do on Liberal arts.
[/quote]
The truth hurts.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I've seen only one person point this out, but it bears repeating: there's a sizeable percentage of the jobs chemistry, physics, math, and engineering majors get that are being outsourced to other countries.
[/quote]
And yet, those fields have very low unemployment rates (under 3%). I'd imagine that's all churn.</p>
<p>
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Why? BECAUSE OF THE MONEY.
[/quote]
Thank you for this great deduction.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Companies can't afford to pay you guys who go to school, major in some tech, engineering, or natural science degree, then come out expecting to make $50k straight out of college. Yes, even you guys from Harvard, Yale, etc. They're being OUTSOURCED.
[/quote]
And the data consistently shows that these degrees are the most demanded by companies.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So the competition is going to stiffen for you guys in the next, oh, five to ten years, because there aren't a lot of jobs here. Then what? If I get some middling salaried job at a paper, or teaching, or <em>gasp</em>, law school...I could make just as much money as someone with a big-time engineering degree.
[/quote]
This is hilarious. Newspapers are downsizing at a rate never seen before - with double digit losses in revenue this last year. I highly doubt print will stay profitable for very much longer.</p>
<p>Teaching. Not even mentioning the huge opportunity costs involved in getting an MA before you can teach - engineers still have a much higher monthly salary than teachers. The salary of engineers could deflate significantly and still be higher. </p>
<p>And Lawyers, I do wonder what the average salary of someone who possesses a JD is. Lawyers, on average, make decent money - the statistics don't count the people who have JDs but couldn't get law jobs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And the same thing that happened to Business majors (too many people going into it for the salary prospects) is eventually going to happen to engineering majors.
[/quote]
That makes no sense. Engineering already makes more money than business, on average. If people actually cared about income they'd likely go into the engineering to begin with. Not to mention that engineering has stagnant enrollment.</p>
<p>You can major underwater basketweaving at Harvard and get into law school. Point is, any program at a top school is going to be rigorous.
By the way, Harvard Law School takes nearly half their admits (and matriculants) from Harvard College. (~250/550) This, in no way, shows that polisci is good prep for law school....I think it is, but a big majority of law school applicants major in political science...I think it was about 30-35%, more so than probably any other major, and certainly more so than the other liberal arts majors. I believe it was more popular than, say, English. Even econ only composes around 10% of applicants, I believe. I would think that a polisci major would find it difficult to distinguish him/herself from the other law school applicants.</p>
<p>Most of you guys dont know what your talking about.</p>
<p>First of, if you plan on being loaded out of your mind, dont go into engineering, you get a high starting salary, and not much chance more an increase plas 80k a year.</p>
<p>Business, every fool in the country thinks they are gonna all be rich and get an MBA and major in business, to bad everyone cant be a manager, there are a set amount of jobs out there. Dont ever count on being a CEO, and even a top executive unless you comming out of college with a 3.5+ and do very well your first few years in the work world.</p>
<p>There's two problems with Engineering: </p>
<p>First, as the last poster said, the starting salary for Engineers is high but the ceiling is fairly low, unless one laterals into the management side. </p>
<p>The second problem is that engineering skills are constantly changing and older engineers are constantly being replaced by younger, cheaper employees with more up-to-date skills. Its very easy to work 20 years as an engineer, get laid off, and have nowhere to go.</p>
<p>Most engineers are going to make more money than teachers and (most) reporters. In terms of lifetime earnings though, they get blown away by JDs, MDs, and good MBAs.</p>
<p>Right, but none of this even begins to deal with quality of life.</p>
<p>I seriously don't think that most high schoolers or even undergrads can fathom the funfest that is litigating 80 hours a week.</p>
<p>Come on, I wasn't disputing your comment that tech schools have few URMs. I was objecting to the adjectives: "entitled," "overly ambitious," and "money-hungry." That's just not appropriate language to attach to racial overtones.</p>
<p>
[quote]
First, as the last poster said, the starting salary for Engineers is high but the ceiling is fairly low, unless one laterals into the management side.
[/quote]
For those without graduate degrees, the ceiling is very high.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The second problem is that engineering skills are constantly changing and older engineers are constantly being replaced by younger, cheaper employees with more up-to-date skills. Its very easy to work 20 years as an engineer, get laid off, and have nowhere to go.
[/quote]
That's why engineering hasn't one of the lowest unemployment rates of about ~3%.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Most engineers are going to make more money than teachers and (most) reporters. In terms of lifetime earnings though, they get blown away by JDs, MDs, and good MBAs.
[/quote]
You are comparing graduate degrees with undergraduate degrees. Do you see the problem there? Furthermore, getting an engineering undergraduate doesn't preclude you from getting an advanced degree...</p>
<p>^^^^^^^
A masters is a graduate degree, getting an M.S. in engineering the will not boost your pay ceiling that noticably, mabey another 10k a year. As the other poster said, unless you get into the management side. Compare an M.S. electrical engineer salary to a JD, MD, good MBA salary, seeing as they are all graduate degrees, and you will see that most engineers get blown away even with graduate school.</p>
<p>And you are right about the employment rate, if you get a degree in engineering there will always be job for you.</p>
<p>hostiletakeover,</p>
<p>Sure, an MA in engineering might not get you the pay that a JD, MD, or good MBA will, but the opportunity cost and sunk cost of getting one is probably lower than the first two, and unless you actually ENJOY management-side work, more emotionally valuable than the MBA.</p>
<p>I don't think most of the younger posters on this site honestly get how crappy high-powered careers can actually be.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A masters is a graduate degree, getting an M.S. in engineering the will not boost your pay ceiling that noticably, mabey another 10k a year. As the other poster said, unless you get into the management side. Compare an M.S. electrical engineer salary to a JD, MD, good MBA salary, seeing as they are all graduate degrees, and you will see that most engineers get blown away even with graduate school.
[/quote]
One can get an undergraduate degree in engineering and still get a JD, MD, or MBA.</p>
<p>"hostiletakeover,</p>
<p>Sure, an MA in engineering might not get you the pay that a JD, MD, or good MBA will, but the opportunity cost and sunk cost of getting one is probably lower than the first two, and unless you actually ENJOY management-side work, more emotionally valuable than the MBA.</p>
<p>I don't think most of the younger posters on this site honestly get how crappy high-powered careers can actually be."</p>
<p>Is there even such a thing as an M.A. in engineering? I didnt know such a thing existed, I thought they were all M.S.</p>
<p>And if you are talking about opportunity cost, the lifetime salary benefits of a JD. MD. or good MBA would far out way the opportunity cost you saved by going into engineering. And as for the lifestyle, the guy up there was talking about the financial situtation of both, not the lifestyle.</p>
<p>"One can get an undergraduate degree in engineering and still get a JD, MD, or MBA."</p>
<p>I guess you didnt read what I was talking about before posting. We were comparing engineering, the career, to JD,MD, good MBA, the careers, not the majors. So what I said still stands, the salary ceiling of an engineer with a graduate degree such as an M.S. is still low compared to the starting salary.</p>
<p>hostiletakeover,</p>
<p>MA, MS, whatever. Many programs don't make a distinction, and a master's is a master's. </p>
<p>Honestly, the salary benefits of a JD or MD can be questionable, depending on what you do with it. I doubt that many pediatricians are laughing to the bank. I doubt that many DAs are living in the lap of luxury. </p>
<p>And consider the average cost of an MD. You're looking at $100-150K in debt, coupled with 4 years of schooling and 4+ years of low pay (internship and residency.) Talk to doctors, and you'll quickly find that money is the absolute worst reason to go into medicine. Only some of the high-powered specialties are making the big bucks, and on an hourly basis they probably do worse than many other careers.</p>
<p>^^^^^
Im not under the illusion that once u graduate med school u begin makeing 500k a year. But doctors that are finished with their residencys, and fellowships, make more on average than any other profession, you will never find an MD in a soup kitchen line.</p>
<p>The salary range for JDs does vary alot more than MDs, DAs could be making nothing, while some lawyers can be making much more. either way, on average, they will be making more than an engineer.</p>
<p>You'll never find an MD in a soup kitchen line, but neither will you find an engineer.</p>
<p>That's the point, really. The difference between $100K and $150K may seem huge, but in terms of quality of life it's not that big of a difference. After around $100K, the DMRs are pretty intense. </p>
<p>And I know a few engineers with their master's at big firms (Northrop, Boeing, etc.) The pay is pretty substantial, and the hours are pretty darn good compared to the EM docs I know. My buddy is an EM doc at a Kaiser, and his hours are horrendous.</p>
<p>Personally, I think per hour pay should be more of a motivator than salary. Who cares if you make $20K more a year if you also work 20 more hours a week?</p>
<p>The difference between the median engineer and median doctors salary is ALOT more than 20k, the average M.S. engineer DOES NOT make 100k, I believe its around 80k......(I may be wrong)</p>
<p>Again, we are not going over quality of life, that isnt wat the topic was about, its strictly salary. And an attending physican makes ALOT more than an M.S. engineer on average..... you picked EM as an example, they make less than the average physician. How about we take a cardiothorasic surgeons hrly rate to a M.S. engineers hrly rate? Once you are through with your residency, if you go into private practice, you can work much less than a resident, and obviously make much more than an engineer per hour.</p>