Pomona in US News and World Report

<p>

It would be superficial if everyone who is participating in it bought into the notion that the USN&WR rankings were the end all and be all of evaluating colleges, but I don't think anyone has stated that. We acknowledge that they're the most popular rankings, but I don't think anyone has been making superficial arguments for their validation. It is a system, and the question at the outset of this thread asks for analysis of that system and explain what appears to be a very major fault in it, specifically the way Pomona is not part of a perennial top four WASP and, instead, bounces around in the second tier beneath AWS. I think brand_182's post was an interesting angle on answering the question, and other posts have been insightful as well. What basis do you have for calling this superficial?</p>

<p>Though I have no 'beef' to settle with Pomona, and for a long time considering going there, someone on the Swarthmore 2011 boards had this to say:</p>

<p>"My family has an incredible legacy at the Claremont College Consortium, of which Pomona is a member. In fact, 9 of my relatives have graduated from CMC, Pitzer, Scripps, or Pomona in the last sixty years. I thought a lot about going to one of those, because they're great schools and both my parents loved their time at Pitzer, and my uncle had a blast at Pomona. However, when I mentioned Swarthmore to my uncle, all he would ever talk about in regards to colleges was Swarthmore. He told me stories of how Pomona students would participate in the student exchange with Swat, and would come back saying how great it was, and how engaging the classes were. Not only this, but he said that some of those same people had already exchanged with Stanford and said it was too easy! So if you're looking to go to the more engaging, and thus (at least in my opinion) more rewarding school, Swarthmore, in short, pwns noobs."</p>

<p>Though this is completely anecdotal, and the commentary adds little to help us understand why Pomona is ranked so low, I just thought I'd throw it out there. I certainly don't mean to push the thread in a new direction, because the OP points to what seems to be an error. On the other hand, regardless of the USNWR rankings, no graduate schools, or anyone else for that matter will ever scoff at students who choose to go to Pomona...</p>

<p>how can us news favor the northeast? it isn't favoritism.... the northeast is just good...really good.
when it compes to public schools the top 5-michigan, virginia, Berkeley, UCLA, UNC-chapel hill....are not in the north east. it isn't until #13(penn state) that u get a NE school.</p>

<p>2 out of the top 4 schools nationally ranked are from cali. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Princeton University(NJ) </p></li>
<li><p>Harvard University(MA) </p></li>
<li><p>Yale University(CT) </p></li>
<li><p>California Institute of Technology </p></li>
<li><p>Stanford University(CA) </p></li>
<li><p>Massachusetts Inst. of Technology </p></li>
</ol>

<p>combine these rankings w/ public school rankings... it seems as though cali schools have a strong showing.....just not strong enough.</p>

<p>AE..ask for this information in post #44...</p>

<p>I still think all of these schools are so good it doesn't make any sence to chose one over the othe based on some "ranking" </p>

<p><a href="http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Liberal+Arts+Colleges%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Liberal+Arts+Colleges&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>AE… I hate to say this be you sound like someone who just got an A in sophomore rhetoric and you are out to show everyone how good at it you are. Calm down…</p>

<p>First of all you didn’t post a very good question…you ask “Why is Pomona only ranked 7th in the 2007 USN&WR list for liberal arts colleges?” By using the word “only” in the question we know you feel that the ranking is not correct. How much better it would have been to ask “where do you think Pomona fits into the USN&WR rankings and why?” You could have then gained knowledge by reading others posts. </p>

<p>My post #7 is still true, you should re-read it, and thinks about it. If you don’t think it makes sense, do it any way* you are wasting your summer and life with this argument. </p>

<p>I said in post #7….“Trust me at this level of achievement nobody who knows cares whether you are 3rd or 9th or 1st or 10th…they are all great places to go to college...</p>

<p>Don’t fret about it… go read something just for the fun of reading….a Russian novel…or something like it….”</p>

<p>*sorry but sometimes kids with a little high level education need to be told what to do by people with a little high level experience.</p>

<p>

My question is fine. My position is that Pomona should be ranked higher than 7th, and it should be among a perennial top 4 WASP, but it is not. So far, only a very small minority (and a biased one at that) have been saying Pomona is undeserving of such a rankings promotion. So the question is why is Pomona only 7th and not at least 4th.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My post #7 is still true, you should re-read it, and thinks about it. If you don’t think it makes sense, do it any way* you are wasting your summer and life with this argument.</p>

<p>I said in post #7….“Trust me at this level of achievement nobody who knows cares whether you are 3rd or 9th or 1st or 10th…they are all great places to go to college...</p>

<p>Don’t fret about it… go read something just for the fun of reading….a Russian novel…or something like it….”</p>

<p>*sorry but sometimes kids with a little high level education need to be told what to do by people with a little high level experience.

[/quote]

You're making quite a few assumptions about me, and they're all wrong. Why don't you try to stick to the discussion and not talk about me, and try not to patronize me with your "advice?" It is completely misguided. I'm not a college student. I don't attend Pomona, nor did I ever attend Pomona. Nor am I a kid. Furthermore, I don't care for Russian literature very much in general (there are a few exceptions), so I'd rather not read any right now. I'm just someone with an interest in the culture surrounding education and, specifically, elite education, so I'm here engaging that interest. Why you feel the need to come here and school me with your "high level experience" is beyond me, because you obviously don't know the first thing about me, and you don't even make an attempt to understand my interest in this matter.</p>

<p>Finally, post #7 is still as untrue now as it was when you posted it. I'm not fretting over anything, just asking a question. And some people do care about the difference between 3rd, 9th, 1st, and 10th. To say nobody does is false. One group of people that surely does care is the administrations of colleges. Maybe you don't care, but please don't project this onto the entire world, and please don't feel the need to contribute to threads if all you want to do is apathetically dismiss the thread's entire premise and post in a condescending tone toward the thread's originator.</p>

<p>I'll just say it: Pomona doesnt deserve to be in Top Four.
What is so great about Pomona college except its excellence in science department, location, and endowments?</p>

<p>A.E., you said "a very small minority (and a biased one at that) have been saying Pomona is undeserving of such a rankings promotion."</p>

<p>I only heard about Pomona only a few months ago. And I'm sorry to tell you but pomona is not that prestigious especially in the NE.</p>

<p>Nor is Deep Springs^, for the most part, layman's prestige really isn't an exact indicator of quality</p>

<p>AE…..If you were stating a position why ask a question. </p>

<p>I was patronizing because you are responding like a brat.</p>

<p>You are correct I was making assumptions base on you immature comments.</p>

<p>I agree some people do care about 1st vs. 5th, I said “people who know.”</p>

<p>My condisinding tone is a result of you unpleasant responses to others who have posted here. </p>

<p>Don’t state a position with a question, make a statement of your position and ask for comments.</p>

<p>See below concerning USN&WR…</p>

<p>More Colleges Plan to Snub Annual U.S. News Ranking (Update2)
By Matthew Keenan
June 19 (Bloomberg) -- A group of U.S. liberal arts colleges plans to stop participating in U.S. News & World Report's higher- education rankings, saying the magazine's yearly survey misleads students.
A majority of representatives at a meeting today agreed not to cooperate with the annual U.S. News assessment, said Christopher Nelson, chairman of the association, called the Annapolis Group because it was founded there in 1993. Members will work with other organizations to develop alternative ways to evaluate colleges.
The decision by the group, which includes colleges such as Williams, Amherst and Swarthmore, compounds the resistance to the system used by U.S. News, which compiled its first rankings in 1983 and began publishing them annually in 1987. The Washington- based magazine is facing criticism for using subjective criteria to evaluate a school's value, particularly a survey asking administrators to pass judgment on other schools' reputations.
<code>The idea that you could reduce a college to a number is antithetical to everything we know about ourselves, about our students and about what learning is all about,'' said Nelson, 59, president of St. John's College in Annapolis, Maryland, where the group met.</code>It's possible that we've reached a tipping point where people realize the pernicious effects of these kinds of rankings.''
The 115-member association didn't take a formal vote at its annual meeting, which drew 80 presidents. Each member school will make its own choice about whether, or to what extent, it will cooperate with the magazine, Nelson said.
Top-Ranked Colleges
Liberal arts colleges are mainly smaller schools that emphasize general intellectual development over professional training. Williams, in Williamstown, Massachusetts, was ranked top by U.S. News for the second straight year in August, followed by Amherst, also in Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania's Swarthmore.
Brian Kelly, editor of U.S. News, said the magazine continually seeks ways to improve its rankings, published each year as <code>America's Best Colleges.''
</code>We welcome input and involvement of college and university administration officials and other stakeholders in refining and improving <code>America's Best Colleges,''' Kelly said in a statement.</code><code>The ultimate goal, of course, is to continue providing consumers with factual, accurate, easy-to-navigate information that will help them with a hugely important life choice.''
The rankings measure about 1,400 schools on criteria such as academic excellence, average freshman retention rate, graduation rates and faculty resources. The magazine also surveys about 4,000 administrators, including presidents, provosts and admissions directors. The peer reports account for 25 percent of a school's score.
Previous Campaign
In May, a group of 12 college presidents, including Nelson of St. John's, sent a letter urging hundreds of their counterparts not to fill out the survey that measures schools' reputations and to discontinue the use of U.S. News results in their promotional material. Twenty-four additional schools have signed the letter since then.
The U.S. News rankings have helped distort the college admissions process, said Lloyd Thacker, founder of the Education Conservancy in Portland, Oregon, and co-author of the May letter. The criteria emphasize the financial prowess of elite schools over the educational needs of students, he said.
</code><code>College presidents are realizing that there's an opportunity to cooperate'' to create an alternative, said Thacker, who met with the Annapolis Group yesterday.</code><code>It's a significant move forward.''
Alternative Assessment
The Annapolis Group formed a committee to work with other organizations, including the National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities and the Council of Independent Colleges, to develop a standardized report with information for prospective students, Nelson said.
The group envisions a Web site that would</code>`provide easily accessible, comprehensive and quantifiable data,'' he said. The information could cover the number of applications a school receives, enrollment, class sizes, majors offered, sports programs and demographic information, among other data, he said. The site wouldn't include a score or grade for each institution.
U.S. News said common data already exists, developed by the College Board, publishers and university associations, to improve the quality and accuracy of information from schools. The initiative was begun 12 years ago, the magazine said.
To contact the reporter on this story: Matthew Keenan in Boston at <a href="mailto:mkeenan6@bloomberg.net">mkeenan6@bloomberg.net</a> .</p>

<p>I didn't think Pomona had these kinds of threads. This an East Coast "Who's On Top" kind of thread. Are too many East Coasters ruining an otherwise excellent college?</p>

<p>tommybill - if you are going to take a such a stance against another poster, at least get your spelling right. I mean, seriously. Firefox has spell-check built in, and online dictionaries are at your fingertips. You didn't even bother to check how to spell 'condescending' or in your case, 'condisinding.' Furthermore, your spelling errors ostensibly invalidate your arguments because the errors beg the question, "Well, if this kid can't spell, then how is he able to formulate comprehensive arguments?" I'm not on anyone's 'side,' here. However, if we were to find other rankings that put Pomona in a similar ranking, A.E.'s question might become a little bit more engrossing.</p>

<p>this usually spells the end of a thread. ;)</p>

<p>Wow. You were just waiting to do that, weren't you? That's disgusting.</p>

<p>[/ that was really great! hehehehe]</p>

<p>^^yea, I have to admit, there's no troll like an old troll. lol.</p>

<p>fhimas - no AD HOMINEM! Attack the argument. You make yourself look much worse by focusing on the kid's spelling (we know, it sucks) than simply focusing on the discussion.</p>

<p>

It's pretty simple, really. Let me break it down for you so you can understand it. I think Pomona is underrated and that it should be part of a perennial top four in USN&WR, that it is in line with AWS more so than it is with the next four or five schools on the list. My question, then, is why isn't Pomona part of such a top four. I would have thought this was all obvious from my first post.</p>

<p>Anyway, it's obvious you have nothing to add to this discussion, and are more interested in going out on tangents and making attacks than trying to engage in any discourse. So, why don't you go read a Russian novel or something?</p>

<p>
[quote]
My question, then, is why isn't Pomona part of such a top four.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't know if this has been mentioned already or not.. but I think I can answer your question.</p>

<p>First of all.. let's look of the positives of Pomona.. when it comes to SAT averages, the only school Pomona loses out to is Harvey Mudd and is tied with Amherst. </p>

<p>Pomona is also tied with Amherst and Harvey Mudd for first place in selectivity. </p>

<p>Also to make things clear.. I always believed that for the LACs: Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Pomona, and Harvey Mudd should make the top five and that's it! No matter what US News says.. Pomona is a stronger school than Wellsley, Middlebury, and Carleton.. </p>

<p>Let's see where Pomona is behind these other three schools if it isn't selectivity or SAT scores. </p>

<p>Peer assessment.. Wellesley and Carleton have higher peer assessments than Pomona. This is 25% of the score! </p>

<p>One thing that makes me scratch my head though is why are Pomona, Carleton, Vassar, Colgate, and Bucknell all tied for graduation and retention rank?</p>

<p>They all have very different graduation/retention percentages..</p>

<p>Retention Rate
Pomona: 99%
Carleton: 97%
Bucknell: 95%
Vassar: 95%
Colgate:94%</p>

<p>Pomona is clearly ahead of these schools in retention rate.. one would think that for all five of these schools to tie.. Pomona would have a lower graduation rate. WRONG</p>

<p>Graduation Rate
Pomona: 95%
Vassar: 91%
Colgate: 91%
Bucknell: 90%
Carleton: 87%</p>

<p>So Carleton has a higher peer assessment score and is able to shoot ahead of Pomona with an equal graduation and retention rank. Pomona rules the day here though!</p>

<p>The ranks which really seem to bring Pomona down to #7 are the alumni giving rank and the faculty resources rank. Pomona is ranked 27th and 18th in these areas respectively. </p>

<p>Why Pomona's faculty resources rank is low is something to think about.. according to the % of classes under 20, % of classes over 50, Student/faculty ratio, and % of faculty who are full time.. Pomona seems to perform better than most of the schools in this area! </p>

<p>If there is something I'm missing.. please tell me.. I am confused about exactly how US News does the rankings. </p>

<p>No matter what, Pomona is the best LAC in the west and that's a fact.. except for Harvey Mudd for engineers..</p>

<p>USNews has a particularly cumbersome method of computing faculty salaries; it takes the entire faculty of college x and averages out all the salaries as one big pool. Thus, if a significant number of College X's tenured faculty reach retirement age at the same time (as often happens at small colleges) AND they are replaced the next year by an equal number of assistant professors (as also happens at small colleges) College X can experience wild swings in its <em>average</em> salary for USNews purposes. This is why you almost never see a perfect correlation between a college's overall rank and its faculty strength rank. It can be all over the place from year to year.</p>

<p>

That's interesting, and I can see how that would lead to some of the seemingly arbitrary variance in rankings from year to year. I can think of far better ways this statistic could be computed.</p>

<p>Maybe the Annapolis Group can do better, haha.</p>