<p>Wheel back 6 years: if you were to choose a school major for financial reaons, you'd be crazy not to choose CS. Now Silicon Valley is littered with the homes rented out by former CS majors who can't pay the rent. </p>
<p>Wheel back to Dustin Hoffman - anyone remember plastics?</p>
<p>Wheel forward - supply-chain management. That's what Wal-Mart needs, and they are by far the largest employer.</p>
<p>Canuckeh,
One major consideration in choosing a future field is flexibility, being able to adjust hours to satisfy needs as a parent. It may not seem so important now, but its wonderful to be able to see a child in a school play, or at a major game, or be home when they return from school. My PhD doesn't offer greatest rewards financially, but the freedom to set own hours is more significant, at least to me.</p>
<p>Could he be worrying about nothing? I've heard nothing but HUGE financial success stories out of US business schools. </p>
<p>One with a bachelors starting at $50 and moving to $80K per year the follwoing year. One recent grad of non-Ivy MBA offered $120 plus payoff of MBA loans.</p>
<p>If it's only about the money, then go for business degrees, eh?</p>
<p>What a shame you and your mates are so focused on the money, trust fund excuse or not. </p>
<p>There is PLENTY of time to worry about money. If you had the hindsight the parents have, you'd realize that worrying about it when you're 18 or 19 is futile.</p>
<p>Just for the record, I have a friend who double majored in philosophy and chemistry, then went on to med school. You can do both if you choose.</p>
<p>As to the discussion at hand, we would be able to pay full freight for the schools our kids attend if they weren't both going at the same time. However, with 2 kids in college attending schools who each cost over $30,000 it would be impossible. Both have merit grants and this year, for the first time, we qualified for subsidized loans. I don't feel like the government is giving us a free handout. We will pay back the loans. The only thing the govt. covers is the interest while the students are still in school. The merit aid they receive is not from the govt. It is from the schools' endowment funds. Both hubby and I are in public service jobs. We could both make more money in the private sector but feel fulfilled both professionally and personally by what we each choose to do. Our combined income is over 6 figures so we are not poor. But we made our professional choices to allow us time to spend with our kids as well as contribute to our communities. No regrets.</p>
<p>At 18, I wanted to be a world-famous poet. At 20, a world-famous war correspondent. At 25, I wanted to be Vice President of Marketing for a financial institution. By 30, I'd achieved the third. And, you know what? I gave it all up to raise two great kids the way I believed they needed to be raised - and that didn't include me working 12 hours a day and leaving them with the nanny. I started my own business as a freelance writer so I could actually be in the house with them --- it's enough to help pay bills, save a bit for their educations --- but I'll never be famous, I'll never be rich. What I WILL be is a good wife, a good parent, hopefully proud of my children for becomming good spouses, good parents, and good people in their turn someday. Sending them to college is part of helping them achieve that goal. I'm not sending them to college to learn how to make money, I'm sending them to college to learn about themselves, the world, and their place in the world. We won't qualify for financial aid. I could care less if they become paupers or welfare recipients, millionaires or billionaires, plumbers or bus drivers, investment bankers or famous actors. What I do care about is that they become GOOD PEOPLE. That's all that matters in the end, at least to old fogeys like me. :)</p>
<p>Rhanks for all the advice. It intrigues me that I get torally different advice from different corners. My father, a third generation farmer, honestly believes that medicine is the most elite and secure profession, the biggest sign of success. I have no interest. My girlfriend's father thinks there is no substitute for the MBA and can make a strong case for this is money if the objective. My mentor and favorite professor wishes he had more focus at my stage and says he would have made different choices. Alum that I talk to who guide undergrads universally counsel making hard choices early. On this board there are more laid back people, taking time to find the right fit in colleges for your kids (my parents never saw a college campus!). Is your commonality choosing lifestyle over financial ends? Many complaints, though, about education available to your children, class warfare, being priced out. So some of you regrets and some no regrets?</p>
<p>We definitely chose lifestyle over financial ends. No regrets, none. In fact, if we had done it the other way, I think we would have had a lot of regrets. As it is, my husband's financial situation is significantly better than his parents and we are about equal to where my parents were. We have raised 3 boys that we have been very involved with and are extremely proud of the young men they have become. We live comfortably but don't travel extensively, live in a modest house, drive regular cars. We are very satisfied with our lives. I don't think that having more money would make us any happier than we already are.</p>
<p>I think, ultimately, that each person needs to decide what is most important to them - career, money, family, recognition, status, security - and pursue those goals. It is also important to realize that for most of us, we can't have it all. I was delayed in getting started on my career because I chose to stay home with our sons. It is the best decision I ever made. I realized that I could always work, but I would only ever have one chance to stay home with my babies. We struggled financially, but it was a good decision for all of us. Other people make other decisions that are right for them and it is not right for you to judge those decisions.</p>
<p>As far as paying for education goes, if they had not been given merit aid to the schools they now attend, they would have attended less expensive schools and that would be fine. The schools they attend are excellent places for them both to be and I am glad we have the financial resources to send them, but it would not be the end of their educations if we could not. They could both get a fine education at our state flagship, it would just be a different kind of education. I do not believe they are entitled to an Ivy education. On the other hand, I don't believe that an Ivy education is the most likely path to a successful life. I don't place nearly as much value on it as you obviously do.</p>
<p>Carolyn, I love your post. You're an amazing, thoughtful woman and a wonderful Mom!</p>
<p>Back to the original question, my Ivy education did not get me a high paying job; quite to the contrary. When I tired of being 'poor' I decided to be an entrepreneur and make more money-- & I succeeded. Then I was a SAH mom for about 10 years... loved that; made zip and volunteered for everything. But then my self-employed H had a couple of bad years, so I went back to work and wound up making a great salary doing an entirely different thing.</p>
<p>My point: I believe initiative, drive, confidence, & and creativity ( and knowing yourself, your strengths, and where you can fit) equate with success much more than where you got your degree. </p>
<p>The degree can open a door for an interview or a chance but if you don't follow it up, the door will shut pretty quickly. I was probably happier as a SAH mom, but when the mortgage needs to be paid you do what you have to do! I thought it was a good lesson for my kids about problem solving, pitching in, and setting goals. BTW, the field I am in now you can do without any college education at all! LOL!</p>
<p>Canukeh wrote:
[quote]
Many complaints, though, about education available to your children, class warfare, being priced out. So some of you regrets and some no regrets?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know if you are referring in part to things I posted in the thread responding to the Peter Sacks request, but if you are, you missed the point to characterise my words as "complaints". I stated as fact (not complaint) that the Ivies were cost-prohibitive for a large segment of the middle class. I also stated my opinion that it was a "myth" that a private elite education was substantially better than what could be had at many more affordable, less prestigious, private colleges and pubic universities. </p>
<p>The place where you are missing the boat, I think, is in the assumption that well educated parents particularly care whether their kids go to elite colleges. My father was Ivy educated and my mom attended a Seven Sister college, my brother and I chose the UC system, and I'd be perfectly happy for my kids to go there. What irks me, if anything, isn't that I can't afford the full cost of a private education, its that there is so much social pressure on kids these days to aspire to "reach" colleges and Ivies. I didn't have that kind of pressure - I only applied to two colleges, both public universities. I'd rather my daughter choose UC over a private college. In hindsight, I think it was a mistake for my son to choose a private LAC over UC, though at the time I supported it -- but even if there were some valuable aspects to his experience, it was not a good educational investment. </p>
<p>I agree 100% with the sentiments expressed here by Mini, Marite, Carolyn, and some others. The only sensible thing to do in life is to follow your heart - to choose a major in an area that stimulates your interest and a career in a field you feel committed to - something that makes you feel energized and able to have a sense of pride in your accomplishments. To me, my education means I never have to work at something I hate; I never have to dread getting up in the morning; and I never am stuck working for a person or a company whose goals and policies I disagree with. That's not to say that I never have had a bad period or a slump -- but it does mean that, among other things, I have the freedom to walk away from jobs I don't like. That's one reason I'm so dead set against students taking on too much loan debt -- debt tends to tie you down. </p>
<p>I can't imagine the conversation you are talking about taking place in a dorm room at the UC I attended. No one was talking about getting rich. No one was naive about the work world, either -- most of my university friends were working their way through school and held no false illusions. I have two friends who became doctors and later gave up their practices, complaining about how difficult it is to make money these days in the medical practice. A couple of my friends became public interest lawyers. There was one guy who was stoned all the time and majoring in art -- he's now a well-known artist selling his works for 5-figure prices. </p>
<p>The only friends I have who became rich after college or law school are those who were rich to begin with -- with one exception: those who went into business. Not that everyone in business got rich --- but business seems to be where the bucks are.</p>
<p>Candi, Thanks. Of the young people who post on this board, I have no doubt that you'll end up one of the "good people" I'm talking about. You already have most of your priorities straight.</p>
<p>Homeschoolmom said something on another thread that I think sums up so much: there's more to life than financial income. There's also psychic income. Not how much you make in terms of dollars, but how much you earn in terms of satisfaction with life. An ivy league education can not guarantee psychic income. No education can, really. Only feeling comfortable in your own skin and staying true to your own principles can.</p>
<p>And, for most people, your principles at 18 are likely to be very different than your principles at 40 or 50. I think the saddest thing in life is someone who thinks life is all about making money and achieving "success" in the eyes of others. True success only lies in your own eyes --- in being satisfied with your OWN applause. Anyone striving for something different has a long road to maturity - no matter what their chronological age.</p>
<p>Of course, it's NOT about choosing lifestyle over financial ends - I think everyone here wants to be economically solvent. But it is about saying that you have ENOUGH financially to be satisfied, to stop chasing mammon and take time to enjoy life's real riches which lie not in THINGS but in relationships. I'd never trade my "boring" life as a wife and mother for a life in investment banking no matter how big a penthouse on park avenue they offered me. Once food is on the table, the psychic income out tops ANY financial reward I can imagine.</p>
<p>As far as the issue of economic status and sending children to college, I personally think that America has come far in this regard - anyone who wants to go to college can find a way to do so these days. They may not go to Stanford or Harvard, but they can find a way to get a college education if they are motivated and want to learn. And their education is probably MORE valuable than someone who goes skipping off to Yale with mom and dad picking up the bill. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that a graduate of Podunk U who has had to skrimp and fight to make his way through school would be a far better employee than someone who coasts through Harvard on scholarship. Just a hunch. Call me cynical, but after 50 years on this earth, I've decided that the people who end up appreciating what they have the most are those that have to work the hardest to achieve it. The harder something is to achieve, the more you value it. </p>
<p>Only people who don't have to work very hard to get through elite colleges have enough time on their hands to sit around while in school and ruminate about how grads of elite colleges have ended up without good incomes. </p>
<p>Well, that's my rant for this evening. Carolyn is stepping off the soap box now.</p>
<p>Carolyn, beautifully said. Just tuning in far later than makes sense to, and I agree with Cheers' comment some time ago on this thread: I suspect that the OP is yet another in a series of incarnations that began with Mom101 and whose most recent appearance was Bobby100.</p>
<p>" What irks me, if anything, isn't that I can't afford the full cost of a private education, its that there is so much social pressure on kids these days to aspire to "reach" colleges and Ivies. "</p>
<p>I think that where one lives and who one's parents are is what determines whether there is the above kind of social pressure. In my area, which has a high proportion of college educated people, including lots of college professors, it is rare to see people pressuring their kids to go to the most competitive colleges. It's more common in Asian immigrants, who are a small proportion of our population. </p>
<p>In fact, where I live, IMO the problem is that many parents -- college educated ones at that -- will bribe their kids to go to a nearby second tier public institution, which the students can attend for free. I have heard of parents of students with top scores and grades giving the students extremely expensive cars so the students will stay home instead of going to a place like a top 25 university.</p>
<p>I would like to see more parents where I live become interested in finding colleges that match the students' strengths and interests instead of steering students toward whichever college is cheapest.</p>
<p>I loved Carolyn's posts, especially: "Of course, it's NOT about choosing lifestyle over financial ends - I think everyone here wants to be economically solvent. But it is about saying that you have ENOUGH financially to be satisfied, to stop chasing mammon and take time to enjoy life's real riches which lie not in THINGS but in relationships."</p>
<p>I find it truly surprising that so many people appear to value money over relationships, freedom, creativity, etc. I, too made a decision to leave a lucrative corporate career to do lower paying things that were more meaningful to me, allowed me to spend much more time with my family, and that happened to pay much less.</p>
<p>I wouldn't trade my lifestyle for a mansion or a Mercedes. I feel blessed to have had the education that allowed me to choose the kind of lifestyle that I wanted. My "hardship" is searching for merit aid to help my son get the kind of college education that he appears to want. </p>
<p>This is very different from the real hardships that my greatgrandmother experienced in working as a hospital laundress in order to send three of her four kids to college at the turn of the century. And those offspring didn't have the kind of choices that my S has. They had to go to whatever colllege would take them, even if that meant sleeping in the furnace room and shoveling coal to help pay his bills, as my great uncle did at Syracuse in the early 1900s.</p>
<p>"Alum that I talk to who guide undergrads universally counsel making hard choices early."</p>
<p>Canukeh, the problem is that no one knows what the right (and hard) choice is these days. As mini said, we can't have a crystal ball and figure out what is the wave of the future. One time it might have been plastics (ala the movie The Graduate) and then it was IT and now it is biotechnology..if you did get into the hottest field without looking at your own interest in it, you might end up in a field that is not so hot in the future and where would you be then? I remember in the 70s (before 3 Mile Island) how Nuclear Engineering was the hottest thing around and everyone wanted to go to the Columbia Engineering school for Nuclear Engineering!</p>
<p>My husband and I are immigrants, came to this country in the late 70s and 1980 respectively. We often have this tension at home where my husband wanted my son to get into a healthcare related field (Pharmacy, Pharmacy research) and my son has no interest in it. So I suppose I will be blamed if my son is directionless when he graduates from college and does not have a "good" job. But I keep telling my husband that even Pharmaceutical research may be outsourced in the future when countries like India and China conform to FDA regulatory standards. So even his field, which is supposedly so secure, may not be.</p>
<p>Carolyn, I too enjoyed your post. Our family has gone through all sorts of financial phases because of choices, fate and just plain bad/good luck. Anyone who chooses to live a life without a certain income level in this country is going to find all kinds of challenges. This is a capitalistic way of life, and money to some degree can smooth out some of the wrinkles in life. There really is no denying that. Having lived a life where a stalled car is a crisis, where borrowing Peter to pay Paul was the bill paying methodology, and finally facing the prospect of distributing tin cups to businesses for coin donations if my then very ill child potentially needed a bone marrow transplant which the insurance did not sufficiently cover, I can tell you that having sufficient funds to meet needs does alleviate the stress caused by needing emergency money. Anyone who chooses to live a life where he is not able to meet his expenses his taking risks that a situation could arise where not having the money could be catastrophic. So, it does not bother me to see adults who choose to stay home and not work when they are MDs (yes, I know a number of stay at home moms who are also doctors on furlough), or have other qualifications where they could be out making more money. That is their business, and if their kids qualify for financial aid because of that decision, well, that is just one small benefit in a number of disadvantages. I highly doubt many people deliberately "go poor" to get financial aid. And if they want to do that, they are welcome to do so, in my opinion, because they are assuming certain risks in going this route. </p>
<p>I can also tell you that there are many families who are "poor" that are well educated with the heads of households working at jobs that simply do not pay much for a number of reasons. One place where you can find many of them is in any university community. I have lived in such communities for many years, and can tell you that the "poor" stereotype does not fit those in this category. To equate the child of two postgrads with that of a kid whose dad is in jail and mom is on drugs, is ludicrous. Many of the kids of the former will be top contenders for elite colleges. And the chances are excellent that the family financial statement does not match the calibre of cultural and academic enrichment such children have. Many of these kids will get preferential treatment for admissions where their parents work, and nearly all of them will have certain advantages in the college admissions process since their parents are familiar with universities and key folk in the colleges. I have learned more about the college admissions systems from these families than any other single source. These people have made academia their lives, and though their incomes may not be high, they are often members of an academic community that does to some extent look after its own.</p>
<p>As for "secure" jobs, things are changing so quickly that I hesitate to list any. Yes, medicine is still a very secure field for employment. You may not get the pay or position, you want, but there are not that many doctors involuntarily unemployed. There are other fields of work that also look pretty good, engineeering and computer sciences, for example, but this seems to have changed somewhat with the outsourcing that is becomeing a way of business. Teaching can be a good field if you are not too choosy about where or what type of school. A different story for the "better" public schools where the employment line can go for a mile. For those kids who are pragmatic, and have no preference of what they want to study in college, picking a field like medicine can up the chances of finding a job. Because, yes, there are many poor grads of top schools. I have met many of them. I am married to someone who chose this path up until a few years ago.</p>
<p>When you look at the people from her class advancing to partner at Skadden Arps and Sullivan and Cromwell, it's easy to forget that the degree is no guarantee...</p>
<p>....but only a tiny portion of each entering "class" to a law firm like Skadden actually make it to partner. Associates make seemingly great money but you work obscene hours in not the most congenial of worlds.</p>
<p>probably why a great deal of the former lawyers I know are doing something else, come to think of it, I can say the same thing about doctors , seems to be working conditions plus the hours just weren't worth the status and income .
Education is never wasted in my opinion, but I hope some of these kids who think life is all about prestige and income won't find themselves in the trap of being afraid to give up outdated choices if their values change.</p>
<p>I come to this conversation late but must second something bookworm said. To say that a highly educated mother (and why is it only the mothers for whom this is the choice?) is choosing between a career and her fanily is to set forth a faulty dilemma. I am highly educated and make very little money because I have chosen to educated the gifted in a program that pays me little and provides no benefits BUT allows me to work my own hours and therefore be the on-call parent. For virtually all of my son's life, I have been able to make half of a professional income (without benefits, of course, it comes down to less than that, yes) and also create circumstances where he has what seems to be a non-working mother. There are many jobs out there like mine if we are willing to sacrifice collegiality and status for the sake of family. I was willing. I am sorry that I had to sacrifice as much as I did. I wish there were more respect for people who do what we do, but that's not reality. </p>
<p>Anyway, my point is that I don't believe that I am contributing little, and I do believe that my son deserves need-based aid. I am helping to educate your sons and daughters--especially those of you who have gifted sons and daughters. I am also advocating for my own son at the same time that I am working to see that other gifted kids in my own community get what little there is out there for them. </p>
<p>Money isn't meaningless. I'd love to have so much of it that I could pretend it is. But it sure isnt worth all the qualities I see in my son that might not have been there if I hadn't given up what I had to give up to be certain he could develop the way he should.</p>
<p>"probably why a great deal of the former lawyers I know are doing something else, come to think of it, I can say the same thing about doctors , seems to be working conditions plus the hours just weren't worth the status and income ."</p>
<p>When my Harvard class had their 25th reunion, some class members surveyed the class. I learned that lots of class members had become doctors and lawyers, and lots were miserable in their jobs. I wonder if the miserable people are the ones who chose those jobs because of the pay.</p>
<p>I also noticed that some of the most admired people in the class were people who had followed paths that involved service of some sort including teaching and similar fields, and who clearly had followed their hearts, not made decisions out of interest in pursuing the most lucrative paths.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, I agree with you about many of the more miserable people having picked their job because of pay or other pragmatic reason without considering how they wanted to live their lives. When you pick a lucrative field, it generally requires a lot of time out of your life. If you don't like that life, you are not going to be very happy most of the time.</p>