<p>My two sons are prime examples of NOT making any money.and graduating fro the IVY's. One son grad of Harvard just about earns enough to live on....He majored in COMP SCIE and ended up being a bust because of all the outsourcing. He was unemployed for 8 mos and tried to finagle a way to be declared eligible for 'food stamps." He once called home and asked how he could be considered living "below the poverty" level so he could receive welfare! At least he was thinking. He now found a job with a gaming company that designs on-line gambling sites. Rather UN-noble for a Harvard grad..but, HEY! He had to eat. He is finally regaining his financial strength and trying to find something more noble....but the pickin's are slim out there. THe other PENN son is still in the same job he had as an undergrad...but now in the management end. He received a BAS from the ENgineering program at PENN. He now realizes he cannot move one iota on this job and needs to obtain some sort of "advanced" certificate, hopefully, from Wharton. He already recieved an "advanced" certificate in construction management from Drexel Inst of Tech, but so far this has been of no help to him. If I can instill one thought to any student out there, it is far more important that you do well.....get a high GPA than what school you came from. Both of my kids had a ball in college..but they appear to be paying the price. NO ONE will even look at you if you don't get a high GPA! It's sad because both are very very intelligent..but a little naive about what the larger real world of work had in store for them!</p>
<p>A close friend of mine found hereself spending all week looking forward to her once-a-week volunteer job at a local hospital (cuddling crack babies.) She thought, what's wrong with this picture? I should be doing what I look forward to doing <em>every</em> day. So she quit a six figure job in the fashion business, and, at age 35 (with the support of her parents) went back to get a nursing degree. She is very happy and an incredible nurse.</p>
<p>When we think about helping our kids find a niche, lets remember they will change their minds and evolve. Rather than studying for a "safe" career, they should study for joy and passion, for knowing themselves, and for the ability to think, analyze, assess, reassess. They should reserve the right to move to new paths. "Safety" does NOT equal fulfillment. </p>
<p>There can be many rewarding career paths that are not straight lines! The whole mode of thinking that is "safe-job"-oriented is the exact opposite of how many successful people think. Most are risk-takers who are comfortable innovating, trying a new path, being creative, making changes. I read somewhere that the average person will change fields about 4 or 5 times in a lifetime. This ability to think and change is exactly why so many intelligent and educated women move to the 'mommy track'-- because we are not willing to be locked in to what we were 'trained' to do at the expense of other areas in our lives. </p>
<p>One friend of mine went from t.v. reality show producer, to news producer, to on-air reporter, to self-help author, to t.v. drama writer. She has nailed each job and made a great living. Each job has played to her strengths-- verbal, interpersonal (I think she was an English major.) Though each job built on the one before none was on an obvious nor well-beaten path. She just took the best path that presented itself and knew when to grab the next opportunity, plus she followed her passions and her dreams.</p>
<p>I am a little sad when I hear HS kids discussing a choice of college as it relates to their chosen major or their career plans. My nephew wants a school strong in "Journalism," despite the fact he's never even worked on a school paper! Who knows where his interests might actually wind up after being exposed to all the new ideas of college?</p>
<p>what a way to find out about the "real world". :(
I am happy that my daughter while she isn't going to be graduating Magna cum laude like her oft mentioned cousin, at least has an idea of the work force and her place in it.
She has been spending summers working with education science programs and is volunteering when she has time with the science classes where she works as an after school science teacher.
I frankly worry about her cousin, who is getting a degree in english and whose parents heart is set on her receiving a Gates grant to attend Cambridge for graduate school. More education won't necessarily make her more employable. (But perhaps that isn't the point, I am still a little confused about that.)
If Ivy grads have a problem making ends meet, it is not hard to see why so many families who don't even have college degrees are having a difficult time paying the bills.</p>
<p>"I frankly worry about her cousin, who is getting a degree in english and whose parents heart is set on her receiving a Gates grant to attend Cambridge for graduate school. More education won't necessarily make her more employable. (But perhaps that isn't the point, I am still a little confused about that.)
"</p>
<p>Yes, she's probably wanting to go to Cambridge for grad school because that would give her the best chances to become educated in a field that she loves. Her decision probably has little to do with employability. </p>
<p>I am very serious: If people really want high employability, they should look at vocational fields like plumbing, roofing and being an electrician. It seems that their services are always in demand, and there's a shortage of good people in those fields. Someone pursuing something like that who also has a strong knowledge about how to run a business probably can make a lot of money.</p>
<p>I am not even thinking about making "a lot" of money, but I do think about putting food on the table. THis particular girl hasn't had to work during college and only has a part time job in the stockroom summers at Mervyns. Her parents pay her credit card bills and she gets what ever she wants. I think it is great to have a strong interest even if it isn't directly applicable to a career but for this particular young lady, I think she would get more out of grad school if she took a year off .</p>
<p>I agree that the trades shouldn't be dismissed, they can be very rewarding, and well paying with shorter hours than what you might make starting out at a law firm. But even in areas like law there are ways to make it more appealing than slogging away researching arcane cases. One former trial attorney we know loves working with kids, and he has designed curriculum and classes to teach kids about the law and how to conduct their own mock trials.
I think part of growing up is learning to accomodate and be flexible, and while my 19yr old self might be horrified that I essentially my career has been centered around children, I have made it fit for me ( well most days)</p>
<p>I am very serious: If people really want high employability, they should look at vocational fields like plumbing, roofing and being an electrician. It seems that their services are always in demand, and there's a shortage of good people in those fields. >></p>
<p>Northstarmom, I happen to agree with you. We live in an upper-income town that has many "craftsmen" in these types of fields and believe me, they and their families live very, very well. The richest folks in our town are not lawyers or doctors, they are construction contractors. I believe that one of the fallacies of today's high school system is that we have done away with "vocational" education at most schools and expect everyone to be on the "college prep" track. There are other paths in life.</p>
<p>High employability, for the well educated who don't fancy bkue collar work, is there too. Take a look at employment figures and salaries for grads of Harvard Business School, Stanford and Wharton, too. It is sgiovinc's story that is the oft heard tale that has been a wake up call for me and my peers. Many of us thought, on some level, just graduating from a top ivy would set us up for life. It did in the old days! First you get a clear understanding that just an undergrad degree will not do. Then you consider what's going to happen in the future economy and what jobs will dissapear. With all of the changes of a new economy I'm really not so sure the advice of many here, to follow your passion, reflects reality today. Look at all the computer guys. Grads from 2 and three years ago are on campus doing grad school research in totally different fields. Also, look at the cost of thaking care of the elderly who are living longer and longer. Many of us will have to care for parents in the future as well as the family we create. It seems a luxury to just say to follow your heart without some pragmatic thinking about your best shot at financial security.</p>
<p>Sorry, canuckeh, your reasoning does not make sense. The computer guys of a few years ago thought they had employability. I remember high school kids being lured with offers of jobs with starting salaries in the $40k and wondering why they should even bother going to college. Then companies discovered outsourcing and students with degrees in comp sci from top universities could not get a job. An MIT B.A./M.A. in electrical engineering took 8 months to find a job. A friend of mine with a Ph.D. in e.e, who once had tenure at CMU was laid off from his company after it got bought out and disappeared and is now teaching at a community college.
If you want employability and no fear of outsourcing, go into nursing or house renovation, or car repair. Even biotech jobs are likely to be outsourced soon.</p>
<p>. Many of us will have to care for parents in the future as well as the family we create. </p>
<p>You are preaching to the choir as we are the sandwich generation as many of us are raising children who are going through the college process, helping out our eldery parents and getting trying to stablize our own incomes for retirement.</p>
<p>My sister who has an MBA from Columbia, happliy walked away from her 6 figure job and is now teaching social studies at an inner city H.S. as she pursues her deam of being a history professor,</p>
<p>I live in NYC, and I know plenty of MBAs that are stillout of work following september 11. One of my MBA friends just got laid of from JP Morgan / Chase where she as a VP and is now working part time at Saks.</p>
<p>After reading Sybbie's post, I should be happy that my sons DO have jobs!!!! And thank goodness no family to support as of yet! You begin to put things into their proper perspectives on CC.</p>
<p>Marite, it is very possible to understand what will in all liklihood happen in the future. Economists have a pretty good handle on future employment. The dissapearance of jobs in the computer companies, for example, did not come as a surprise to those who researched the economy we are moving into. Bottom line, it is very feasable to make a strong educated guess as to where one with your skill set will be most secure in the future. Certainly it is not absolute, but it is a science. So I'm hearing that people are facing all these issues with underemployed kids, saving for retirement, taking care of parents. All over this board are parents complaining that they can't afford what colleges think they can and that many kids can not go to the college of choice for financial reasons. Yet so many of you are telling me to not consider that this could be me in 20 years. Why? The funny thing is that I was never exposed to these issues because my family has no money. Financial aid was all or nothing. Three generations live together and we never thought to do otherwise. The biggest problem seems to be when you make some money, but not enough.</p>
<p>Fine. Go into house renovation. I'll bet you by the time you graduate with your Yale degree, there will still be plenty of opportunities in that field, whether you studied philosophy or economics, or biohemistry or... A local contractor told me he's booked solid for the next two years. Others don't even bother to answer their phone.</p>
<p>Canuckeh:</p>
<p>You're telling me that you did not know that it generally requires an advanced degree to distinguish yourself from other applicants for a particular high paying job? That you relied on a 4 year degree from Yale to ensure your future financial success? That none of the 10 people you spoke with could foresee this--with outsourcing and the like per The Work of Nation's by Robert Reich in 1992 (and member of the Clinton Cabinet)?</p>
<p>Like your advice that ED does not help an applicant (except URMs who score <1450), and discouraging those who fall into the middle-50%ile of a school by telling them they have no chance because you did not get into ALL the Ivies you wanted to, these 10 out of 10 Yale students in your casual discussion group seems contrived. Just like saying that Ivies have an unspoken quota system for Asians and Whites on another thread, I doubt you are posting ultruistically. </p>
<p>Do a search of all your posts and look for the defining characteristic.</p>
<p>Posters in this forum who have been cordial and paitent, I apologize for this rant. It's just that in the majority of Canuckeh'd posts, he makes BLANKET statements that have REAL consequences for those who ask questions about the admissions process on the other boards here on CC. Again, look at the posts and advice he's given to high school kids in the other forums. I reply to him specifically, if heatedly, because he makes huge ASSUMPTIONs whether here or otherwise. When, you ask for his SOURCEs, he either does not respond or uses ONLY antidotes.</p>
<p>Now, I'm done.</p>
<p>PS--Tons of questions. Since all students recieve a subsidy for college, how do you suppose people will pay their fair share? A graduated education cost system, like the current tax code? Or are you telling me that WOMEN who have chosen to rear their children at home are not contributing to society, or that they are the lesser than those women who work? Are you also, deciding--in effect--that your Mom's choice to stay at home to take care of children was selfish or somehow not as valid as your father's work? How would you leagally decide who was pulling their weigh and who was not when deciding who will get 'subsidized' and who won't? Would that not limit the presuit of happiness and go against The Declaration of Independence AND The Constitution and its Amendments? Using income to deturmine worth is unsavory to say the least.</p>
<p>Blaineko, what is the ANTIDOTE to you?</p>
<p>Canuckeh, time for me to weigh in again. I'm in the "follow your passion" group here but would emphasize that with some exceptions an undergraduate degree is not really designed to train you for a job. You should be training for a career or for life, not a job. What that means to me is that even if you develop some skills to a high level you need to develop certain general skills and experiences that will travel across professions. Research. Critical reading. Writing. Computing. Statistics and math. Foreign language. International experience. Working in teams.</p>
<p>This may sound rather elementary, and it is. Assuming that your main job will be primarily "intellectual" rather than "physical" work you may tap into all of these skills areas.</p>
<p>My son went to one of those "top 15" type schools, majoring in economics. After graduation he went to work for a "Big 5 --oops Big 4" accounting firm doing economic analysis (not accounting). Made good money. But it was boring, not intellectually stimulating or challenging. Think Dilbert and you know what kind of situation it was. He wasn't convinced that he'd be happy getting an MBA or a JD either, even if this gave him more control over his work. Money wasn't his primary goal. Autonomy and interesting work were very important. Those "basic skills" that I listed in the first paragraph here? Well he has all of those in abundance. And so he's moved on to a career that draws on all of his skills in math, stats, research, and writing and not only is much happier but by chance also more than doubled his income. (The last is important to ME!)</p>
<p>I think the most important lesson that he learned is that whether you "follow your passion" or not, if you are going to be spending 40-80 hrs per week at a job you had better like it and not just think of it in instrumental terms -- the financial returns that you may get from it. Another lesson is that the type of work situation, and the amount of autonomy you may want, can be very important. And a third lesson (which is more an assumption that I stated at the outset here, not an inference) is that you should think about longer term career options and interests when you plan out our college experiences, both curricular and extracurricular.</p>
<p>I mentioned above that there are some exceptions to the last lesson. These would include, among others, people who are truly passionate about something that takes many years to become really good at and that may require highly specialized training. I have in mind music and art. But even the individual who starts out in college (or after graduation) in one of these fields has to be prepared to use those skills in a variety of ways that accommodate to the shifting economy and their own shifting interests. And so they need to think about getting additional skills and experiences, aside from their specialized training, that would allow them to respond to evolving opportunities.</p>
<p>An antidote: </p>
<p>(1) 10 out of 10 students agree, which is not verifiable to anyone EXCEPT you.
(2) Saying that you work in admissions, so you know that they practice a quota system for Asians at Yale, that is DIRECTLY opposed to what the university says, parents have said, guidebooks, alumni, etc...
(3) Saying that people who score <1450 have NO chance at the Ivies or better LACs, even though MANY sources disagee.</p>
<p>That's one from 3 different posts of yours.</p>
<p>Antidotes are valuable in context with other information. But, when people ask you where or how you made a particular claim, instead of another source, you use ONLY your personal experiences which may not be the norm. I don't care if you believe differently than I do, but when you make blanket statements than argue with those who do have back-up source material and personal antidotal evidence or quotes from the source, then I feel that it is neccessary to say something. This thread is just such a statement.</p>
<p>Blaineko, I'll once again explain what I know and thn you can go back to the chance board and tell high school seniors they'll get into HYPSM with a 1300. Top schools, and many others do quota Asians. They also quota everyone else. Either that or it's an amazing coincidence that they get aprox. the same percentage of each every year. White and Asian applicants with under 1450, and even 1500, better have something extraordinary to get into HYPMS. The average is brought down by special interests and mainstream non URM candidates or athletes must be on the high end stats wise if they are not prodigies of some kind. Just the plain truth, dude, so quit giving false hope to kids who are seeking truth.</p>
<p>And I think the word you're looking for is anecdote.</p>
<p>Canuckeh:</p>
<p>Show me ONE, just one instance where I said someone would get into an Ivy or top LAC with a 1300 and no tip factors. Go ahead, do a search. Then do a search for where you DISCORAGED <1450 SAT scorers on the same board, where you've considered other things besides scores. I'd like to see what you come up with.</p>
<p>I'll wait. </p>
<p>PS--Never claimed I was a great speller. Thank goodness for spell check. Glad you know what I meant. :)</p>
<p>Again, sorry parents and other posters, who have been thoughtful and careful in your responses to Canuckeh. :)</p>
<p>PS--I think other parents know that I am usually more cordial, since I have also posted to the Parents Forum. It's funny that you speak with respect here, most of the time, when you do so less often on posts where applicants to college and high school kids post. Why is that I wonder? You don't need to answer than btw.</p>