Post-graduate internship credit?

Parents Forum
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<p>OK, my d needs some ideas. (Yes, I know, she should do this herself - but she doesn't post on CC, and I'm just checking whether anyone knows so she doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.)</p>

<p>Most of the people in my d's chosen career get their first jobs through internships. She's had a few, but the places she interned aren't hiring. So she wants another internship, but she has to be able to get college credit for it.</p>

<p>And there's the rub - she's graduating with her BA in May.</p>

<p>Does anyone know if there's a school out there - community college, whatever - that will give credit for a post-graduate internship?</p>

<p>Or any other ideas?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>Why does she have to get college credit for it?</p>

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<p>Probably because it’s unpaid, and illegal for the employer to take on workers without pay unless they are interns earning college credit.</p>

<p>Chedva, I know your d. is probably nervous about her prospects of employment, but I think it is a mistake for a graduating college senior to be aiming for an unpaid internship (if I am correct about my assumption). It kind of a form of self-devaluation in the workplace – like beginning the job search telling yourself “I’m not good enough to get the kind of job I want, so maybe someone will take me on if I offer to work for free.”</p>

<p>I’m not saying she shouldn’t take an unpaid internship if one is offered or comes her way – I just think that she shouldn’t be setting that as a goal. My daughter was in fact offered an unpaid internship in D.C. that sounded amazing – she had applied for a paid position with a government agency, and they called her to offer the internship instead – but she turned it down. It was tough – she called me to ask what I thought she should do – but I also felt that it was wrong for them to be expecting a college grad to work without pay. </p>

<p>On the other hand, during the last half of my d’s senior year, she did apply for some internships with agencies she wanted for the sake of networking and gaining interview experience. That is, she’d send a resume – if she was called for an interview, when she got there she would tell them honestly that she could not afford to take an unpaid position, but that she was really interested in the type of work they did, and ask whether there were any paid positions opening up. She didn’t get a job that way, but she did have a positive response – for example, they did provide her with some good leads. </p>

<p>If you posted that your daughter had no internship or work experience at all, then I might agree that she needs to lay a foundation of more experience – but you said that she’s had a “few” – and the problem is simply that the places she worked aren’t hiring. So what value would come from working for one more place that isn’t hiring? </p>

<p>I think your daughter would be better served by working with her college career services to hone up on her job-hunting skills, develop a good resume and plan of action, and target potential employers. A year ago, when my daughter was in a similar position, I played cheerleader – I told my daughter I had faith in her and that I was sure she would get a good job soon after graduation, but I also said that with the job market so tight she’s have to work at it and not to be discouraged if she didn’t get hired right away. I told her I thought she’d probably end up sending off about 90 resumes before finding a job, given the tight market. It ended up that she got hired after sending out about 30 resumes, and ended up with a job that is perfect for her interests and aspirations. I don’t know where I came up with the idea of sending out 90 resumes, but I’m glad I did – – it made the 30:1 results seem pretty good.</p>

<p>Anyway, good luck to your daughter – but if she doesn’t plan on grad school right away, please do encourage her to look for paying work. It’s not just a matter of the money – down the line employers take a history of paid employment a little more seriously than unpaid internships, so she can end up putting herself on a lower track from the get go.</p>

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<p>I appreciate that input, calmom. She has been looking for paid work as well. (And you’re correct, the internships are unpaid and the rules require that she be given credit.) So far, though, she hasn’t found anything in her industry that doesn’t “hire from within.” And her contacts are simply saying, “You have to intern here first.” She’s just trying to play all the angles.</p>

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<p>What industry? </p>

<p>Both of my kids were hired immediately after graduation, but they didn’t really have any prospects or response to job applications until late spring. For them, that was what I expected – I think there’s a fairly short timeline in their fields between the time a job is advertised and filled, and employers want someone ready to start right away. (Both my kids were hired in May for jobs starting in June). So its not all that uncommon for a soon-to-be college grad to be seemingly without prospects in January or February.</p>

<p>Fortunately for my daughter, her college career center was wonderful, so she could focus her energies on preparing for the job search (networking, workshops, practicing interview skills, polishing her resume – even working with an alumna mentor in her field). She said that the career center program was one of the best things she got from college – so definitely encourage your daughter to take advantage of anything similar that her college may offer.</p>

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<p>I agree with CalMom … working for zero not only sets a terrible precedent, but it keeps the graduate from learning about life on a budget. If a company can’t hire the young woman as a temp, I say she should keep looking for something better … which is another useful life lesson.</p>

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<p>Thanks, calmom and NewHope33. As I said, she hasn’t given up looking for paid entry-level work. But an unpaid internship in her field is better than a paying gig at McDonalds (since she’s not interested in that industry!). She’s just trying to get her ducks in a row.</p>

<p>Oh, and by the way, if she does do the unpaid gig, she’ll learn to live on a budget - the one we set for her!</p>

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<p>Sometimes you have to do what you have to do. I doubt it is anyone’s idea of ideal to take an unpaid internship after 4 years of college, but there just aren’t that many entry level jobs out there, and there were even less 2 years ago when my S graduated. He actually took an unpaid internship in an industry he thought would be interesting (although unrelated to his studies), progressed from that internship into 2 paying jobs within the company, but then decided he wanted to return to the field he had studied. Was it a waste, not at all. He got real work experience, and figured out what he didn’t want to do. He did move up, but with our agreement left after a year to go back and do some post-bacc work to strengthen his quantitative skills that had been overlooked in his college coursework. Now he is applying to graduate school and looking again for work, although this time he is just looking to “make money”, not develop a career. There are many roads to the destination and I think it is up to the family to figure out if they can/will support a young graduate who needs to take an unpaid internship to get their foot in the door. </p>

<p>I realize that this doesn’t answer Chedva’s question at all, but my S’s internship did not require him to receive credit. It was not a large company and it was in an industry that is notorious for unpaid internships. I recognize that that doesn’t address the legality/labor issues raised in such circumstances, but it was what it was.</p>

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<p>I recently told a post-grad intern than his continuing to work in my office for free could make him LESS employable. Yes, he was getting experience in the industry, but those in the industry were also aware that my office was hiring entry-leve staff and had not made him an offer. The obvious inference: office X has seen his work and they have not made him an offer; he must be deficient in some way.</p>

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<p>

OK, but a college grad has a lot more options than working at McDonalds. </p>

<p>Your daughter should make a list of the skill sets required for her intended career – if she can’t get the position she wants, she could be working on racking up experience in relevant skill areas. </p>

<p>For example, my daughter’s current position required, among other things, familiarity with accounting software and basic financial management skills – although my d. doesn’t have a job in finance, she works for a division of an agency that has an annual budget in excess of $1.5 million, and one of her duties is to track income and expenditures. My d. has already had other paid administrative employment where she was responsible for bookkeeping, albeit a with a much smaller budget-- so she could truthfully list experience in that area. </p>

<p>This is the type of thing that career counselors can help with. Many people – adults included – make the mistake of categorizing their previous work experience by type of industry or job title. For example, when I was a lawyer experiencing a sense of burn out, I felt kind of trapped… because what else did I know beside lawyering? A career counselor helped me understand that legal writing is simply one form of technical writing – and if I enjoyed writing, then my legal skills would transfer to any other area where I had an interest. </p>

<p>So the on campus career services can help your daughter created a better resume based on what she has already done in her internships, that in turn can be tweaked for a variety of different jobs. Maybe, for example, in her chosen industry, her job might involve managing and coordinating large projects – she could have a job in an entirely different industry, where perhaps part of her responsibilities included managing entirely different types of projects – but those SKILLS would then be the sort of thing to put on a resume when she is ready to apply to her next job. It might take 2 or 3 different jobs, and several years at each, before she has assembled the <em>experience</em> needed to present an impressive resume for her desired industry – but that would be the way one would go about getting a position without the internship. </p>

<p>I’d note that down the line, it wouldn’t necessary be a entry-level position. It may be that all of the entry-level contacts are telling her that they were hired after internships… but what about the next level up? I’d note that my daughter’s current job is NOT technically “entry level” – she is the youngest person in her position, and everyone else with a similar position had 1-2 years of experience of some kind post-college. That’s where it probably was a big help to my daughter that she came from modest means and didn’t get an allowance while attending college in a hugely expensive city – she had to work, and she had to work multiple part-time jobs at the same time. Her problem by the time she graduated was figuring out what jobs to leave off the resume - there simply wasn’t room for them all.</p>

<p>So the point is – your d. may end up getting a reasonably well paying job with a job title that has the word “assistant” in it, has nothing whatsoever to do with her chosen industry, but lays the foundation for the skills she needs to submit a resume for openings beyond mere entry level. And she never knows when a seemingly unrelated job will provide an opening or connection that will lead her in her chosen direction. (Caveat: very often, the jobs end up leading off in different directions entirely, and often the employees end up very happy with the direction they have been taken. One of the benefits of a casting a wide net for employment opportunities is you sometimes discover a new niche which turns out to be far more rewarding than whatever niche you thought you wanted. Another good exercise for young people is to interview adults with interesting careers and ask them how they got started … there’s a whole lot of serendipity in the process.)</p>

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<p>

If it was a for-profit company, then the practice was likely illegal – and those practices will come back to bite the company after awhile.</p>

<p>The US Supreme Court just slapped down hospitals that were trying to avoid paying FICA for their medical residents, on the rationale that they were "students’ – all the time working the horrendous hours that medical residents are subject to – so its unlike that courts will take a very kind eye to unpaid (or grossly underpaid) "internships’ in the future. </p>

<p>I know that when these unpaid internships seem to be industry practice that a job seeker is between a rock and a hard place. Realistically, that internship may very well be the only route open for them to that job. But on a gut level, I see the wannabe employees who accept that as being part of the problem – kind of equivalent to illegal immigrants working for below minimum wage because that’s the best they can get, or scab labor working for cheap to enable union-busting tactics from management. Yes, the low paid workers are victims as well – but to get ahead, workers need to stand together to insist on their rights. Especially intelligent college grads, who have invested tens of thousands into their educations, and are able to accept unpaid internships precisely because they have other resources, usually in the form of parental support – if not them, then who?</p>

<p>So I’m proud of my d. for turning down a post-graduate, unpaid internship when it was offered to her, no matter how exciting it seemed. If more recent grads had the backbone to say “no” to employers who are cheating them from the outset, perhaps those employers would think better of their practices – either that, or they’d have to settle for less capable undergrads in a position to earn credit for the work. </p>

<p>I’m not opposed to volunteerism – but I think that really needs to be limited to the charitable world. That is, if a kid wants to hone their skills while working for free, perhaps they can do that in the Peace Corps (where at least they get a stipend) – or helping bring aid to disaster victims.</p>

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<p>I would suggest looking for AmeriCorps internships, if there’s one in a field that fits your daughter’s interests. Stipend plus college/education funding.</p>

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<p>“If it was a for-profit company, then the practice was likely illegal – and those practices will come back to bite the company after awhile.”</p>

<p>I am confused. What law is on the books that you can’t hire unpaid interns? Companies do that all the time. I’m aware of absolutely no law that forces companies to pay interns in any way. The only thing I’d heard reguarding that, was that the administration had proposed making it illegal to not pay interns, unless it was a government internship (apparently it would be fine to work for free for the government, oddly enough).This must be some sort of company specific internal policy, not a law, don’t you think?</p>

<p>And won’t it be costly to be forced to get college credit for an internship, even though you don’t need it? For our kid to get credit for a summer internship, it would have cost several thousand (I think around 8K) to get credit for an unpaid internship, as he would have had to pay summer tuition. Which would have been insanity! To have to pay for the honor of working for free (when not even desiring the credits).</p>

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<p>What field is it?</p>

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<p>

The Federal Fair Labor Standards Acti, which includes minimum wage provisions. Most states have their own wage and hours laws as well. By law, companies need to pay all people who work for them at least $7.25 an hour. They can’t get around that by designating employees with the title of “intern” unless very specific criteria are met – hence the college credit requirement. See: [Unpaid</a> Internships & the Fair Labor Standards Act - University of the Pacific](<a href=“http://web.pacific.edu/x14113.xml]Unpaid”>http://web.pacific.edu/x14113.xml) </p>

<p>The Department of Labor likes to see factors such as the internship being a prescribed part of the curriculum or part of the school’s educational process - which pretty much implies that the intern should be concurrently enrolled in school. (If they have graduated already, then obviously the internship can’t be “part of” an education that the student has already completed). </p>

<p>There are specific exemptions for nonprofits because charities often rely on volunteers, but basically while companies are free to provide training to individuals without paying them, they can’t make them work without pay. If an “internship” is seen as a prerequisite or lead-in to specific employment with that company, that would be a disqualifying factor.</p>

<p>I’m kind of surprises that anyone would not know that employers are mandated to pay a minimum wage. Most workplaces have very large posters displayed in areas such as employee break rooms specifying the law.</p>

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<p>I looked over the link, calmom, and it said it was revised on 6/97…alot of time has passed since then, and I believe that unpaid internships are very common nowadays. Perhaps the companies figure they automatically fit all the criteria, or it has been done for so long they don’t even give it a second thought. I recall reading recently that kids are now often getting unpaid internships after graduation, it is not unusual. So perhaps it is an unenforced regulation? It certainly seems unfair for a company to get free labor. Then again, there are probably situations where companies are getting alot less from the intern than they are spending in time to train them.</p>

<p>Perhaps an internship after graduation would fit the college credit criteria better if one was working towards a masters degree?</p>

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<p>Weird about the internships. My younger d. has an internship this summer, following graduation, that pays $26/hour (40-hour week) and all international travel expenses. In her field, no one would dream of offering (or accepting) an unpaid post-graduate internship, and all internal hiring comes from among the paid interns.</p>

<p>So I’m still wondering what field this is? Museum curatorship?</p>

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<p>I would love to know what field pays $26/hr for a 40 hr a week internship, with international travel. Sounds like a dream come true for a short term job.</p>

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<p>Busdriver, here’s a link for the lastest release from the Dept. of Labor (April 2010)- [U.S&lt;/a&gt;. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Fact Sheet](<a href=“http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm]U.S”>Fact Sheet #71: Internship Programs Under The Fair Labor Standards Act | U.S. Department of Labor)</p>

<p>Note that they say that the internships should not be used by the employer as a trial period for individuals seeking employment at the conclusion of the internship period. – which is exactly what the OP’s daughter in this thread is looking for.</p>

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<p>“I would love to know what field pays $26/hr for a 40 hr a week internship, with international travel. Sounds like a dream come true for a short term job.”</p>

<p>Global internship program in accounting with KPMG. (very competitive, though - in the DC area there were more than 200 applicants for 3 positions, and interviews took two full days.) (There were other companies offering similar, though without the international component. Some of the jobs she has been offered are, to my way of thinking, mindboggling.)</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.kpmgcampus.com/kpmggo/gip.shtml[/url]”>http://www.kpmgcampus.com/kpmggo/gip.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;