Postponing engineering specialization

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>My son will be attending Columbia U Fu School this fall. Since childhood he has expressed an interest in aerospace engineering but never actively did anything to demonstrate this interest, for example, by building model aircraft or engaging in other science/engineering projects. In high school he excelled in all subjects, studied 2 languages to AP level, did very very well in physics, etc. He is a conceptual kind of person till now, not hands on. Lives in his head. Nice raw talent. 2350 SAT first attempt. 800 in physics. I don't know if they reflect real aptitude. </p>

<p>I don't want him to choose an engineering major, like mechanical, etc, then graduate and discover he doesn't like engineering. This has happened to a friend's son. Studied EE/CS at CMU, worked at Microsoft for a few years, then dropped out of engineering altogether. Of course, this is a sample size of 1. I would like college to be an intellectual exploration, a feast to the point of gluttony. Looking at the engineering curriculum, he will be very restricted because he has to satisfy those ABET requirements. </p>

<p>Would it make sense to study applied math or applied physics, then study a lot of different electives, econ, astonomy, other cultures ,etc, that is, get a solid education , then when more sure, after 4 years in college, go specialize in engineering if that's what he still wants. Or will it become impossible? I guess I am asking what kind of courses would be viable for future grad school in engineering whilst avoiding an undergrad engineering major?</p>

<p>I am a little disappointed that much off the discussions center on earnings and jobs. Please suggest subjects that an educated person should know: I vote for astronomy (to get a sense of one's place in the cosmos), math, physics (to develop capacity for abstraction), other cultures, ancient philosophy, Greek tragedy, art history or music, economics, neurobiol. There is so much he can do if he only avoids those ABET requirements. Please help.</p>

2

<p>One of the good things about an engineering degree is it's pretty flexible. It's not rare for people to have a BS in engineering and go on to med school, law school, or work in finance. </p>

<p>I've met a few people who were science majors and ended up going to grad school for engineering. The only disadvantage I can see is that these people typically have to take some basic engineering courses that they missed out on to catch up with the rest, and this will prolong their stay in school. </p>

<p>I too am disappointed about the number of posts about salaries, though there have been fewer as of late. Too many people go for the money and end up doing something they don't like and end up leaving the field years later. I can't say that people shouldn't be discussing jobs though. Most engineering majors aren't in it for the classes, but rather use the classes as a means to an end. The reward for me is less of what I learn, and more of a what I'll be able to do with the knowledge as a professional working on projects. </p>

<p>It's probably best to let your son decide what kind of classes he should take. If he's more technically inclined and wants to only take technical electives, why not let him? If he wants a more well-rounded education, then Columbia SEAS is as good of a place as any to get that.</p>

3

<p>Of course, I take it as a given that if my son were to major in a science he would have to take some catch up courses or satisfy some prerequisites. But I was more concerned over whether an engineering grad school will flat out refuse to admit him. I think not but you could speak to that. Hypothetically, could he take math/physics as undergrad majors , then do grad work in EE or ME etc? Which type of coursework would be most versatile?</p>

<p>I get your point re letting him do what he flourishes best in. That's what will happen. My wish list may not be his. So be it. But how often we hear of adults who say their parents let them do what they wanted and now wish that that had not been the case. When we visited Brown (where he was admitted) we found students who loved the fact they could have great freedom in choosing courses. How many will go forth not knowing there are gaps in their knowing? How many will wish they had had better guidance? To me the eternal verities, in a world enthralled by the merely contemporary are Shakespeare, Aeschylus, Dante, astronomy, etc. Feynman's ex wife described him as the world's brightest man without an education.</p>

<p>So, as a thought experiment please suggest a versatile non engineering major or majors or courses of study which will give a thorough education as well as keep the door open for future specialization in engineering or science or finance, etc. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Are you at SEAS? How well regarded is Columbia in the world of HYPSM etc? Thanks again.</p>

4

<p>I think the quantitative skills developed in an engineering program, like ken285 said, really open all sorts of doors. You'd get those same skills in an applied math or physics program, but I doubt the doors such a program would open would be that different. If he wants to start out as an aerospace engineer, why not let him? </p>

<p>Generally, most grad schools admit students based on "their potential to succeed" in the graduate program, without considering the students specific undergraduate major too carefully. So anything where he'd be able to show strong quantitative skills would be fine (math, physics, computer science would all be fine).</p>

<p>And I don't believe there should be any set list of subjects any "educated" person should be familiar with. To be honest, I don't have an interest in Greek tragedy, at all, and if anyone thinks less of me for that I couldn't care less. Nor do I care to take any formal classes in art history or music. Why would I if I'm not interested in them? To join some elite social club of people who can knowledgeably discuss Greek tragedy? I'll let them talk about whatever it is they feel cool talking about while I talk about whatever it is I actually enjoy talking about. </p>

<p>What is it that your son wants to do? It sounds like he wants to at least give aerospace engineering a go, so why not? If he decides he wants to take electives in Greek tragedy or Art history, then great. If not, why would you care?</p>

5

<p>To your second post: I think you could find far more examples of people who wish their parents would have let them do what they wanted. I've never heard a single story of someone who wished their parents had forced them to study all that stuff you just mentioned in a formal setting (and to be quite honest, if my parents told me I "had" to study Greek tragedy and art history, I'd take out a few extra loans and study computer engineering, which is what I enjoy. And if I really couldn't afford it still, I'd join the military, do my 4 years, and then study what I wanted to study). </p>

<p>People should search for whatever it is they love, and certainly not settle for something just to settle for something, but if you go into an engineering program, find that you love whatever it is you are doing, then you shouldn't feel any obligation to not pursue it. Hell, that applies to anything. If you get tired of it later, start searching again. People change careers and go back to school all of the time. If your son enters Fu and finds out he doesn't like his engineering classes, then of course he should switch majors. But if he likes them, why should he feel obligated to learn subjects that don't really interest him? You can say maybe they don't interest him because he's unaware of what they really entail, but why does that matter if he already found something he loved doing?</p>

6

<p>Please note that I am not preventing him or even advising him to do or not to do. I am educating myself since I am not an engineer and don't know that world.SEAS does not have undergrad aerospace, if it did, I would strongly urge him to do so, one should pursue or try out childhood dreams but at SEAS he has to do mech. engr. That too is fine, aerospace at grad level, etc. But I am finding out that he is not so certain hence my exploration. I was told that applied math is very versatile by a young friend who started out EE/CS, quit Microsoft and feels trapped in EE/CS.</p>

<p>Re Greek tragedy or art hist. I respectfully suggest that I won't look down on someone who doesn't know these areas but I might view that person as having missed out on significant aspects of the human experience. Please be open to the idea that we are humans first, job holders next, and it might be meaningful in a wisdomic sense to acquaint ourselves with the human experience on the planet. Sorry, I do feel someone who has not been exposed to Shakespeare at his best, say in King Lear, has missed out on education in some way. He may still be wise, there are wise but illiterate peasants where I come from but such wisdom was primeval survival wisdom without the interior exaltation that comes out of an acquaintance with extraordinary literature. This is but a point of view. Thanks.</p>

7

<p>I know of many who have told me that they wished their parents had put them thru formal training in music or compelled them to study foreign languages instead of allowing them to opt out. Of course, as you rightly said, there are more opposite stories, of parental control and force. As a clinical psychologist I hear deeply personal stories all day and hope I tread carefully myself as a parent. I do not see any passion in my son, perhaps I am trying to urge him to take a variety of courses so he may have a better chance to find something he resonates to and I fear the ABET requirements might prevent his finding his passion. Please note the decision will be his. I am writing here to make sure, by soliciting a variety of views, that I have not overlooked something vital.</p>

8

<p>Sorry if I came off as jumpy or whatever. Applied math or physics would be very versatile and would be acceptable to nearly any graduate area of study in engineering, as far as I can tell (like others have said, a 1-year Masters might turn into 1.5 or 2 year masters, but in the long run its not that big of a deal). From what I've seen, undergraduate engineering degrees are acceptable for acceptance into most quantitative areas of study(economics, physics, math, CS), but (at least from the postgraduate survey from Cornell) you won't see people going from engineering to, say, classics. I think that was your original question.</p>

<p>If he did what you are suggesting (applied math or physics), then he could even probably take electives in mechanical engineering his junior and senior years if he decided on aerospace engineering as a career. So he could basically decide at any time what it was that he loved/wanted to do and go ahead and start pursuing it (still getting the BA/BS in Physics/Applied Math) through electives.</p>

9

<p>As long as the undergrad major is related to the grad major, it's entirely possible. Whether or not having a different major will put one at a disadvantage, I have no idea. I've been to open houses for CMU and Columbia SEAS grad school admitted students, and in each case there were quite a few making a jump into engineering from a non-engineering background. </p>

<p>Personally, I feel college should be a time when students should be able to take whatever courses they want as long as learn enough in one area to specialize in it. There shouldn't be a set list of various subjects one should be familiar with as live said. BUT there is actually at almost every school, especially in the humanities. Shakespeare, Dante, the classics... those are usually taught in the core humanities classes every engineering major takes. Most engineering schools specify that in addition to the humanities core in the first 2 years, you have to take an additional 2 to 4 electives in the humanities and social sciences department. I've had the opportunity to take philosophy, art history, economics, politics with those course slots. The opportunity is definitely there for an engineering major. The guidance for a set list of subjects one should know should be in high school. While h.s. courses aren't as comprehensive, they certainly teach enough for one to be an educated person. </p>

<p>It's good to advise your son that there are other options out there and not let him corner himself into engineering. If he isn't passionate about the subject, it's going to be tough. All of the successful engineering students that I know truly enjoy it, and are enthusiastic. </p>

<p>When I was applying to Columbia for grad school, I noticed something called the Institute for Flight Structures in the Civil Engineering Dept. I don't know anything about it and have never heard about it previously, but the description on the website is as follows:
"The Institute of Flight Structures was established within the Department of Civil Engineering and Engineering Mechanics through a grant by the Daniel and Florence Guggenheim Foundation. It provides a base for graduate training in aerospace and aeronautical related applications of structural analysis and design."
Probably should ask about it at some point. Usually, mechanical engineering is the best fit for aerospace engineers though (at least based on what I hear). </p>

<p>I will be at SEAS this fall, but for graduate studies. I went to the Cooper Union for undergrad, which has a stronger technical focus. Not a good fit for everybody, but it was good for me.</p>

10

<p>No, Live, I did not regard you as jumpy. You made me reevaluate my bias. I don't know why, cannot explain it properly, but biased toward a classical education. CP Snow wrote a book a long time ago, Two Cultures and made the telling point that a lit grad may look down on someone who hasn't read Shakespeare but may himself be ignorant of biology or physics. In today's world, the sciences and engineering are perhaps the liberal arts; yet, I hope my son will continue to read good literature.</p>

<p>I don't understand Ken when he wrote, if undergrad major is somehow related to grad major. Does that mean identical, as in undergrad mech eng-= grad mech engr or some equivalence as in applied physics undergrad= EE grad etc. I hope you meant, undergrad anthrop does not equal grad aerospace engr!!</p>

<p>From what you gentlemen say, my son could take an undergrad engr degree and then do grad work in physics or math or vice versa. Or even econ. One further question. Can one have undergrad major in mech engg and then go for grad in CS/EE?</p>

11

<p>Right, I meant you can go from a science/math major to engineering.</p>

12

<p>As long as he/she has had the core classes you could go to grad school in CS/EE as a mechE undergrad. It will typically be around 4 courses (for CS, it would be something like an advanced programming course, discrete structures (math), computer organization (CS/EE), and maybe operating systems. For EE it would probably be analog circuits, signal processing, digital design, and then one or two upper-level courses in whatever it is you want to study. At least here (I'm not sure about Columbia), every undergrad engineering major has to take 2 "advisor-approved" electives that can be anything and 3 technical electives outside of his/her own major, so it is fairly easy to prepare for graduate study in another field.</p>

<p>Also, do you know what the maximum number of liberal arts courses your son could take within Columbia engineering? I'm not saying this equates to mastery in any particular subject, but I have to take 6 liberal arts courses from at least 3/6 different categories (things like behavioral analysis, historical analysis, plenty more fancy names basically breaking down "liberal arts" education into 6 categories), 2 freshman writing seminars that are offered on literally any topic and can be very informative, and then 2 free ("advisor-approved") electives. That's still 10 classes that can pretty much be on any topic that interests you outside of engineering. Is Columbia's core curriculum similar?</p>

13

<p>My understanding is that Columbia's Core requires Writing Seminar, Art Hist or Music Humanities, and one of Literature Humanities or Contemporary Civilization. LitHum covers lit from Aeschylus to Yeats or so, CC covers PreSocratic thru modern day. These core courses pretty much equal or substitute for the distribution requirements at other places. In addition, there is opportunity for electives, both technical and non-technical. I still think, without any real basis for thinking so, that an ABET accredited program allows less choice than non-ABET since there are those requirements but if my S wants to be an engineer and if as you gentlemen say engineering offers the versatility that applied math does then let him go do his thing. I am educating myself re the issues, perils, advantages and traps and in no way will control my son. After the stock market crash of 1927 (correct date?) one wisdomic banker who lost a lot is supposed to have remarked, "better to have loaned and lost than to have never loaned at all". More apt quote than the loved and lost original.</p>

<p>So, maybe my son could major in mechanical and do some core EE/CS or some other engineering courses or even applied math as minor. I am perhaps reacting to my upbringing in India where you are tracked into a domain in middle school, so to speak. So many lives wrecked when you wake up at 22 and find that your choices at age 14 are not what you want to do. Unless outstandingly gifted, like in music or math, where such gifts show early, I believe a mature postponement by sampling a wide domain is better. Am I so wrong in thinking this?</p>

<p>Also, help me with this: my son found HS AP Calc AB easy and AP Physics C easy. Physics teachers in 11th and 12th grades described him as OUTSTANDING in physics intuition. Does it foretell talent or just a good student like many others? I am clueless as to what to make of this since I have heard that calc. and physics are difficult and my passion-less son finds them easy. Thanks for all your help.</p>

14

<p>ramaswami, the ABET requirement should not/never be an excuse for someone on engineering track to broaden his/her academic interest. In other words, nothing can stop someone from learning. Your S can take whatever additional classes (for P/F or simply audit) and pursue whatever non-engineering activities as long as he is motivated.</p>

<p>Judging on your posts, your S is obviously quite talented. His lack of passion puzzles me - it could be that he is still finding "his thing" which is ok. But, I suspect that he simply hasn't ventured outside some comfort zone for much of his life. Don't get me wrong, here he is wanting to "try out" engineering at college and his concerned parent is already proposing alternatives ...</p>

<p>Finding one's life passion is like finding a lover. Occasionally you know it right way when you first see it (aka love on first sight). More often, you have to date, fall in love and out of love and go through process of elimination multiple times. </p>

<p>You have prepared your S well - hey he makes it to Columbia! I guess it's time to take a step back and let him plot his own path from now. He may drop out from engineering all together like your friend's son. Perhaps, this "destined to fail" journey is what him needs to find his life passion and true love (or lover!). So just let him "go freely".</p>

15

<p>Dallas, what a wonderful response. I am glad I wrote on this blog (I am barely computer literate). An only child, of parents who had to come here to make ends meet, of parents from a former colony who are insecure enough and name dropping enough to want an Ivy for him (I did urge U of Chicago so he could go to a ghetto and study Plato and St. John's and Olin Engineering) and living in an affluent community unfortunately my S has not experimented beyond a comfort zone. Till now, I was preoccupied with getting him in, to use that cliche.</p>

<p>As you so sagaciously point out, my friend's son may ultimate win life's sweepstakes. He has seen more of India than I have (and I grew up there), he has meditated in ashrams, is going to study comparative religion at grad school. This guy has a grand interior life and I guess I must be open to the fact that my son can have this only if he tries and fails and tries again, just like falling in love. I wish he had applied early to Stanford and been admitted, he wouldn't have me hovering around him. The work I have to do is on myself. Thanks for the tip about auditing courses, P/F etc I didn't know of these options. Today, I am going to take a vow of not discussing his studies with him. But please permit me to seek wisdom in these columns.</p>

<p>I am so grateful this Sunday morning for your words. These are the words I use for my patients, doctor, heal thyself and all that, eh.</p>

16

<p>Just one more point - not everyone has the personality to have a "passion" for something, in the sense that it is being used here. And that's OKAY! There are engineers who are PASSIONATE about their work, and engineers who like it enough, and engineers who tolerate the job but prefer to lie on the couch and watch sports. As with ALL jobs and careers. So we need not have the expectation that our kids will find a passion - and that may take some of the pressure off our kids. :)</p>

17

<p>dallas, that post reminds me of Steve Jobs' 2005 commencement speech at Stanford:</p>

<p>


</p>

<p><a href="http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2005/june15/jobs-061505.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2005/june15/jobs-061505.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It's a good read if you like those kinds of stories. It's also interesting how the class that had one of the biggest impacts on him - or that he enjoyed the most - was a calligraphy class he attended after dropping out (not any math/science/engineering class). </p>

<p>And having his high school teachers rave about him certainly does foretell talent - but so does going to Columbia! I think (if you ever asked) you'd find most kids at Columbia had high school teachers who wrote flattering recommendations for them in whatever subject it is they were pursuing (but that still shouldn't take away from compliments your son received himself).</p>

18

<p>I read the Jobs speech a few months back. As you know, retrospective comments and studies mean little. For every Jobs who got fired and "found" greatness and fulfilment, for every Bill Gates, more drop outs have never amounted to much. Also, it is difficult to know if the calligraphy class had the most impact. Difficult to judge impact especially when related to interior life, the ghost in the machine. Why is it I don't hear of anyone claiming that a class in fluid dynamics or labor unrest in 19th cent America changed them? It is usually a trip to India, Zen, playing go, flying an F22, etc etc. Actually, Linus Pauling did say an organic chemistry class turned him on. I found Jobs' comments very commonplace and have been wondering why so much has been made of it. America loves its billionaires, take away the money and perhaps the achievements may not be that stupendous, great as they are. Forgive this comment.
I am not sure I understand how going to Columbia would foretell talent. Please clarify. On another note, is it unpredictable, getting into all the Ivies? I was under the impression that HYP is truly difficult, rest easier, no? How often does it happen someone got rejected at Dartmouth or UPenn or Columbia and got into HYP? And how often does the reverse happen? Thanks.</p>