potential at ivy league med school??

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>hi everybody -
im not one of those people who posts up their stats just to fish for compliments...i really am in a terrible quandary here and am wondering what to do, so any advice would be appreciated. </p>

<p>im a junior, just got my mcat scores back and they weren't very high - i was consistently scoring above a 36 on practice tests, but on the real one i got a 10 on verbal, 11 on both biological and physical sciences, and a Q on writing. so 32Q total. </p>

<p>i have a 4.0 gpa at the university of illinois at chicago, chemistry major. i've done a ton of research and hopefully by the time i send in my application i will have co-authored a paper and at least have my name (i dont know the rank yet) on an abstract. i received a Goldwater Scholarship Honorable Mention and various other regional research scholarships. I am also co-editor-in-chief of a pre-med undergraduate journal...etc.etc.etc. </p>

<p>so basically my two questions are 1.) right now, do i have any chance of admission to a top 10 med school (harvard, yale, duke, etc.) or 2.) should i retake the mcat - meaning that if i do, i have enough of a foundation in extracurriculars and gpa to have a feasible chance IF my score DOES improve? how much should it improve, given my activities and background info??</p>

2

<p>Firstly, even the most outstanding applicant has even a minimal shot at top schools, that's just the way things are.</p>

<p>Second, a 4.0 is of course outstanding, especially as a chemistry major, but as of right now you still have a year of coursework to go prior to application, so that number must be taken with a grain of salt. The same goes for your extracurricular involvements - your junior year is absolutely critical to the application process.</p>

<p>Third, before deciding whether or not to retake the MCAT, you must evaluate your reason for wanting to go to a 'top ten' med school, as in most cases there is very minimal benefit to doing so (there are numerous threads on this subject). For many schools, a 32 is an adequate score, especially because you have good balance across your sections, and the MCAT is an ordeal you only want to go through once if at all possible.</p>

<p>That said, to answer your immediate question, I feel reasonably certain that in order to be a competitive applicant at the schools you mentioned you would indeed need to retake the MCAT for a couple reasons. Depending on the practice tests you took, those scores should be a reasonable predictor of your actual performance, and 4+ points is enough of a disparity in my view to warrant a retake. More importantly, were I an admissions officer, a 32 would lead me to question the difficulty of attaining a 4.0 at your school (the MCAT is supposed to be the great equalizer across schools after all), and such an opinion would certainly damage your overall application.</p>

<p>As one last disclaimer though, there are so many other factors involved here (quality of recommendations, essays, interview ability) that carry significant weight in the process, that it becomes impossible to accurately gauge anyone's chances at nearly any med school, much less the most finicky ones.</p>

3

<p>1.) Of the US News "top ten" (twelve schools), only a third of them are Ivy League schools. Of the seven Ivy League medical schools, about half of them are top ten. Do not confuse these terms.</p>

<p>2.) Seeing a drop from practice tests is quite normal, and 4 points is definitely not unexpected.</p>

<p>3.) Nobody ever has "no" chance, and therefore you do have "some" chance. The process is very unpredictable.</p>

<p>4.) What kind of career are you interested in? With exceptions, obsessing over Research-ranked medical schools isn't a particularly practical way to spend your time. <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=213924%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=213924&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>5.) I'm assuming you're an IL resident. Four of the twelve demonstrate very strong state preferences: UM, UW, UCSF, and Baylor.</p>

<p>6.) Huge components of your application are composed of intangibles: when did you send your application in? How well do you interview? Are your essays well-written? Did you apply intelligently? How good are the letters of recommendation? Etc. These are not questions you can answer at this time, but the point is: unlike (say) law school, much of your "chances" is composed of the actual application process itself, not just your qualifications.</p>

<p>7.) This is highly dependent on your race, as well. The right one with a 4.0, 32 makes you a lock wherever you want to go. The wrong one puts you right at the national average.</p>

<p>8.) Of course, clinical experience is crucial.</p>

<hr>

<p>1.) Yes, of course you have "any chance". Everybody always has some chance, because so much of the process is: (a) random, (b) built around intangibles.</p>

<p>2.) I don't think it's sensible to retake the MCAT unless you're very, very confident of at least a three point gain. I don't think that's a sensible bet at this point. But, hypothetically, let's say you got a 36. I think that would be a substantial improvement to your application, but there is never going to be a guarantee at the sorts of schools we're discussing. Again -- there's no sense obsessing over them.</p>

<p>In your position, I would leave the MCAT alone.</p>

4

<p>Truly distinguished research can make a big difference, particularly if you are looking for MD/PhD programs. You would need advice from someone who is familiar with your research and the outcomes from applicants from your college. The most prestigious med schools are extremely competitive and sky high gpa's and mcat's are the norm among the successful applicants. </p>

<p>You do not need to go to the top medical schools to have a great career. Going helps a bit to get into the most competitive residencies, but med schools are so regulated that it is hard to argue the education is better. I say this having spent my entire career at top med schools.</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
1.) Of the US News "top ten" (twelve schools), only a third of them are Ivy League schools. Of the seven Ivy League medical schools, about half of them are top ten. Do not confuse these terms.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Poseidon's usage of "top ten" and Ivy League is not inconsistent, since Ivy League schools do form the single largest, coherent block in the USN top ten/twelve rankings. Moreover, with four of eight Ivy League universities having "top ten" medical schools, the term Ivy League has a 50% positive predictive value -- the greatest for any natural grouping.</p>

6

<p>"Ivy League" is certainly closer to "Top Ten" than "Atlantic Coast Conference" is, but if he means the USN Top Ten, he should simply refer to them as such.</p>

7

<p>sorry - I didnt realize that distinction would become an issue, but yes, i was referring to the USN list of top research schools.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that residency selection committees may not share USNews ranking of top medical schools. USNews includes medical school factors that most people in the field would find of no importance in picking residents. </p>

<p>So going to a USNews top 10 may not bring you nearly as much success on that measure as looking for the places with the highest peer assessment.</p>

9

<p>afan, when you say "peer assessment", you mean where ppl are the happiest? If that is so, how does one confirm that about the med school that you are applying? Is it like visiting the school and seeing if you like the environment?</p>

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<p>I forget not everyone obsesses about this stuff enough to be familiar with the lingo. </p>

<p>Although USNews does lots of things wrong, one thing it does that is useful is to ask academics what they think of other places. The peer assessment for medical schools consists of asking residency directors and other people whose opinion matters to medical students what they think of medical schools. Now, these people may be wrong, they may be misinformed, they may base their opinions on outdated information. But when they are selecting residents, what they think of medical schools matters to the applicants. So that is what I meant by peer assessment.</p>

<p>Some of the things USNews includes in their overall ranking do not matter to people who select residents. For example: Total NIH funding counts for a lot. Funding per faculty member counts for nothing. USNews pretends funding per faculty member matters, so their ranking can be strange. There are other examples.</p>

<p>It is certainly worthwhile to try to get a feeling about how much students like their school. However, unfortunately, medical school admissions are so competitive that for many students they pick their schools by the simple method of going to the only place they were accepted.</p>

11

<p>another thing - how favorably/unfavorably do medical schools look on applicants applying out from a combined baccalaureate/MD program? does that work out to be advantageous in terms of leverage, or do the schools start to question the applicant's motive for wanting to attend their college?</p>

12

<p>I am a junior and planning to apply for med school in June 2008 as soon as it is available (thanks to BMD for providing the timeline).
My GPA (3.5) and MCAT scores (31P) are bad but my ECs are much better. My chances at the schools I am interested in are nil based on the average GPA and MCAT scores, my questions for those who are already in medschool are
1) What did you base your decision on which school to apply (other than location)
2) Should I exclude top schools from my list based on my GPA and MCAT scores even though I think my ECs are competitive
Thanks</p>

13

<p>1) I applied to schools where my GPA and MCAT score were on par with or higher than the average.</p>

<p>2) What is your definition of "top school"? If you mean Harvard, JHU, or WUSTL, I think you realistically have no chance, unless you have some sort of trump card up your sleeve.</p>

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<p>Factors that I looked for: location (most important), curriculum (PBL vs. traditional), global health opportunities, avg. USMLE scores, diversity of student body and patient population, quality of facilities, rankings</p>

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<p>Thanks. </p>

<p>"top schools" in my list are - Duke, Baylor, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Stanford, Columbia, Yale and Emory. I am majoring in Economics with a certificate in healthcare policy. I am attracted to Georgetown because of DC and to Emory for CDC.</p>

<p>trump card - not sure I have that but I do have 2 publications (3rd author in both), national award for a health related student organization I found. I spend many hours/week on community service projects. </p>

<p>Let me know what you think. Thanks</p>

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<p>norcalguy - I would do much better in PBL than traditional style. Did you take your GPA & MCAT scores or ECs into consideration at all ?</p>

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<p>No, I did not take GPA/MCAT into consideration at all. I applied to schools at the low end of the spectrum (3.5/30) as well as top schools with averages of 3.8+ and 35. </p>

<p>My Ec's are okay (in my opinion) but things like Ec's and essays are rather subjective so I made the assumption that different reviewers will have different opinions.</p>

18

<p>1.) Apply to every school in your state, public or private.</p>

<p>2.) Assess the rest of your application. Bluntly, I think NCG could afford not to worry about MCAT and GPA because they wouldn't have affected his decision anyway.</p>

<p>In general, are you an average candidate? Look for schools where your numbers are around the average. Are you below average? Look for schools where the numbers are better by a bit. Are you above average? (This is almost exclusively for underrepresented minority status or academic honors such as a Rhodes.) You can afford to give up a few points.</p>

<p>3.) You've got eight schools listed. Even if you were a match for them -- which, as you say, you're not -- eight would be dramatically too few. What does the rest of your list look like?</p>

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<p>That is what I guessed about NCG
I am not a URM.
I am still compiling my list. It takes time to look through the schools. I am off this semester and work in a very remote place. I have internet access only when I travel to the city.<br>
How many schools should I choose to apply ? Any suggestions ?</p>

20

<p>Depends on your home state. The usual number is 15-20; a bad home state (California) should push you to the higher end of that spectrum. You'll want to divide it into three tiers -- those you don't match well with (in other words, probably seven of the eight you mentioned above), those you match with (seven), and some that you're above numbers for (six).</p>

<p>Use USN to obtain average MCAT/GPAs.</p>