@engineer What’s interesting is that the pay is not commensurate with the responsibility, or the amount of work required for the degree.
This thread is very interesting. I am not an engineer .My son and I have attended a few accepted students days this month. The biggest group at these events have been kids pursuing engineering. Some schools have pre programs and some direct admit and some both. So now choosing between schools and maybe we should pick direct admit with a less ranked school.But was thinking going to higher ranked school .Also does us no good if his gpa drops and he loses scholarship. Had no idea there was such a capacity problem at some schools and they have more kids than they can educate in engineering. Confused and have to decide soon. I went to law school years ago and some schools weeded out but mine did not. Any way to get stats from engineering schools on freshman/sophomore retention to help us make the right choice ? It took me 4 accepted student visits to recognize this issue and I could have been asking questions earlier if I would have known. Penn state really spelled it out at their event, which was at first shocking and then helpful. Thanks for all the helpful information everyone.
Without all if the specifics its hard to provide guidance, but its my impression that if you go the direct admit route, (vs. HOPING to get into the engineering program after the first year) even at a lower ranked school, your son is guaranteed 1) an engineering degree at the end of 4 or 4.5 years, 2) not to have to transfer mid course and start over at a new school and 3) a son that will likely get recruited and have multiple opportunities as long as he is at a credible, top 100 school. Friend of mine graduated from Cal State Sacramento and had a couple offers prior to graduation.
I’m the original poster. Here’s what I did. I called and asked. I spent a ton of time on the phone with different schools and asked pointed questions about capacity, what they could tell me about those who don’t cut it, what the GPA requirements meant (because a 3.2 where the mean is a 3 is one thing and a 3.2 where the mean is a 2.7 is something else again). Also, I asked about how siloed the schools were (i.e. at some schools if you don’t make the cut for your major, you are let lose into liberal arts just when you are at your most vulnerable while at others you stay within the science and engineering school but just pick a different major), and what happens to kids who get mono.
I didn’t make my kid do the calling because he really didn’t have the knowledge or skill. I used to be an academic, so I knew I could get professors to talk to me seriously in a way they wouldn’t talk to him.
In the end, my child did not choose his highest ranked option, but one where we thought he’d be most likely to have a good experience if all went well and if it didn’t. A year later, he is a solid student this year - which is about all we can expect. We are very glad we didn’t choose a school with more weeding out or a greater chance that he would lose his scholarship.
I wouldn’t choose anywhere that wasn’t a direct admit.
Thanks ! I think direct admit will work best for us. Interesting all his letters say something about welcome to college of engineering. Never saw a pre engineering statement nor a direct admit statement in the letters that I recall . Just glad I know now to ask. Would be a bummer to figure this out after rejected other schools and programs. Thanks again !
You are welcome. It really pisses me off how hard it is to find out the things that really matter about these schools… especially while they are asking for $200k over 4 years.
No one in our house really cared about whether the pool looked like a buffalo or a rectangle, or if the rec basketball team played on the prettiest court I have seen in my life. Good luck making the decision. If you need information, pick your kid’s major field and email whoever is in charge of undergraduate studies for that department. Email should be to arrange a call. Don’t waste your time with low-level support staff in the department office.
and… FWIW: my son’s letter from CU said “preengineering”, “honors college arts and sciences” and “scholarship” so it was clearer than I think the letters you are reading. Not sure why.
The CU Boulder school of engineering is extremely competitive. Hardly anyone from my school got in. The admissions committee tries to pick students who will be the most prepared for engineering.
An exemplar student for the engineering school would be a student with multiple APs and a high GPA. Personally I did the IB program in that it is the most rigorous. I strongly recommend going through such a program because it’s as close to college life as it gets. The IB has students write many research papers, one of them being a 4,000 word Extended Essay in a subject area that the student chooses. I know there is a lot of debate between AP vs. IB, but in my opinion the IB program is superior. I’m not trying to condemn or lessen any one or any program, it’s just fact. The IB requires more work of students, although AP and IB ultimately cover the same material (for the most part) the IB has students approach it and use it in different ways. The IB has set requirements:
- You must take at least 6 IB classes, each in a different subject area (however if you want you can double up)
- You must write a 4,000 word research paper
- You must take a class called “Theory of Knowledge”
- You have to complete a program called CAS (Creativity, Activity, and Service) in which you engage in activities of those three categories throughout the program. Aside from that list, every student is required to take the knowledge they learn in class and apply it to a paper, called an Internal Assessment, in which they try to investigate something new.
I feel like doing the IB is what strengthened my application, I took the following subjects:
- IB English A: Literature HL
- IB European History HL
- IB Biology HL
- IB Chemistry SL
- IB Mathematics SL
- IB Spanish SL
Note: my high school only had a limited choice of IB classes, everyone has to take literature and history. Otherwise, I would have loved to take HL math and HL chem. Nonetheless the program has prepared me as much as possible for the rigor/pace of engineering.
I agree with @jadonrs Mathematics SL or AB Calculus must be passed to start in most engineering programs at CU Boulder. This is why students are placed in pre engineering, for the most part,their mathematics and physics seems too weak. This student seems to be missing IB physics, though but still got in with his biology and chemistry background. He would have to take a full year of college physics to get any CU degree.
. Also we are a state school, so we do favor Colorado graduates when there is less room, Colorado students with good IB or AP backgrounds get into our engineering college, along with quite a few students from India and China who are full pay and very well prepared mathematically and strong physics backgrounds, for our CU College of Engineering. In addition, a few Colorado STEM high school have automatic acceptance into CU Engineering, IF the student gets a minimum math ACT or SAT score, and GPA and completes a STEM high school program in the state of Colorado.
Colorado State is nearly as demanding, for engineering, and Colorado School of Mines is HARDER to get admitted than CU Engineering, typically. One needs a much higher math SAT score for Mines. So the very top math students in Colorado often do attend Mines, but in equal numbers will choose CU Boulder Engineering, due to better research labs and a few more engineering choices in Boulder, such as aerospace engineering.
Applied mathematics is a top 20 in the nation program at Boulder.
Boulder is not a school to ski at, anymore, if you pick a major like mathematics, physics, applied math, EE etc.
You will have to study more than most schools to pass here.
@Coloradomama, yeah we need strong well trained people in the professions we have to count on.
CU Boulder engineering programs start math in APPM 1350 (or MATH 1300). This is calculus 1, and does not require AP calculus AB or IB math SL (but does require knowledge of precalculus proven on placement test). AP calculus AB score of 4 or 5 would allow skipping calculus 1.
https://www.colorado.edu/mechanical/sites/default/files/attached-files/2187_blue_0.pdf
https://www.colorado.edu/pre-engineering/course-registration/math-course-options
https://catalog.colorado.edu/courses-a-z/appm/
https://catalog.colorado.edu/courses-a-z/math/
https://catalog.colorado.edu/undergraduate/admissions/credit-examination/
https://www.colorado.edu/pre-engineering/course-registration/math-course-options/recommendations-students-who-have-earned-college-credit
https://www.colorado.edu/engineering-advising/get-your-degree/degree-requirements/maps-minimum-academic-preparation-standards
Students in pre-engineering at CU Boulder need to earn 2.7 overall and technical GPA, according to https://www.colorado.edu/pre-engineering/how-pre-engineering-works/admission-engineering .
This thread is shaping up to be a resource that future pre engineering admits gather info, so I asked my neighbor about the program since their child started in it but didn’t make it.
-Basically, pre engineering means that the students 4 year body of work in HS says they can’t handle the engineering program, but CU is willing to let them try. The odds of a kid starting to take school seriously once they get to college is slim.
-Not taking Calculus either in HS, online, or in summer school made their child’s chances close to zero. He was doomed in the first few weeks because the classes move so fast. The freshman engineering classes are definitely weed out classes.
-Most if not all of the pre engineering kids that make the cut are still at the bottom of the class struggling to pull their GPA up. It’s not easy to get internships when your GPA is bellow 3.0.
-The biggest negative is that once you wash out you have a lower GPA and few options for a new major. They feel like their kid wasted a year chasing engineering, and now they have to pay for a 5th year. Their child is planning to spend junior year taking easy classes to boost the gpa, and then 2 more years in their new major.
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What range of high school achievement (courses, grades, test scores) leads to direct admission to CU engineering, and what range leads to admission to CU pre-engineering?
The college GPA threshold to move from CU pre-engineering to the engineering major of choice is 2.7, which is not all that high compared to thresholds that some other schools used to enter or stay in an engineering major.
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Well, I don’t agree with a lot in the previous posts.
My nephew went to a very rigorous high school but he was no where near the top. He took a few AP classes, probably 4 or 5. He did not take any IB and did not take AP calc. His ACT was 28, and maybe his math was a little higher. He was an average graduate at a high rigor school.
He was accepted at Mines and CU, and picked CU. He got a D in calc and had to retake it second semester. He then took Calc 2 at a city college in the summer to stay on track.
I don’t think CU is trying to weed out engineering students by putting them in pre-engineering, but they have a standard to meet and everyone has to meet it. If someone in pre-engineering doesn’t pass the required classes, he doesn’t get into the engineering school. Would that same student who was directly admitted to engineering get to continue with the engineering program if he didn’t pass chem and calc and physics? No, he’s be required to change majors.
It really comes down to whether the student can pass the engineering classes to either remain in engineering (direct admit) or be allowed to transfer into the school of engineering (pre-engineering).
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@ucbalumnus Its next to impossible to pass Calculus 1 at CU Boulder Engineering without having taken AB Calculus at least. high school AP Calculus is ASSUMED !
So yes, it really does require that a high school student study calculus, or they will simply flunk out of CU’s math classes.
The only acceptation is the BOLD Gold Shirt students, who go to CU Engineering for five years, and get high school math, physics, and chemistry in year one, to prepare. See that five year program, its only open to students from inner city schools or rural schools, that do not offer calculus, which is rare in Colorado today.
This is true at any good engineering, college, ALL OF THEM assume calculus knowledge. And its easy to get, using MIT Open Course, take 18.01 for free here-
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-01-single-variable-calculus-fall-2006/
Or use Khan Academy single variable calculus lessons here-
https://www.khanacademy.org/math/calculus-1
My sons went to Georgia Tech and Case Western Reserve University. Its so important that students
know calculus, and they got that, and thus they both studied using MIT Open Course, to prepare for freshman year math at Gatech and CWRU.
My sons said if they had not reviewed calculus, they would have FLUNKED math at their colleges.
Calculus goes fast and it assumes you already know the subject well from high school classes.
By the way in Atlanta Georgia, most kids preparing for college engineering. do their calculus through distance learning at GaTech. !!! Cool but so far Colorado is way behind on distance learning programs.
Today Colorado high school students have access to one or more of: AB Calculus, SL Math, HL Math and BC calculus at almost every Colorado high school.
Ditto at CU Engineering, which is arguably an equal school to CWRU or GaTech for mathematics.
CU is NOT ski U anymore.
Then why do “ALL” of the college course catalogs list the prerequisite of calculus 1 to be precalculus or placement by exam that tests precalculus (not calculus) concepts?
The idea that students need to take single variable calculus more than once (and not an honors or theory/proof version) is rather odd. Other math courses (more or less advanced) are not seen this way.
All,
I can’t believe this thread is still going on.
For those of you still reading, CU is one of many fine engineering schools in this country.*
I urge you to have your kids apply broadly and think hard about which schools offer them the best chance of success. All engineering schools will do some culling – the program is hard and not for everyone. But some schools weed out more kids than others. Some have direct admit to a major, some have Freshmen compete for limited sophomore spots, and some don’t weed out much at all. Do your research before you spend the money.
For my money, a program with a 25% conversion rate is a recipe for disaster and despair. I don’t care how good your kid was in high school, those odds are long.
- To read some of your posts, you'd think that CU was second to MIT. It isn't.
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@ucbalumnus. The vast majority of students need to take calculus 2 to 3 times to really learn it. A few get it on the very first try. Many of the kids at CU drop or flunk calculus 3 on the first pass. Thats because they really never learned calculus 1 or 2. The best way to learn? Repeat, repeat and then becomes a calculus TA and repeat calculus 1 class yet again. By third try the student actually understands calculus 1, then calculus 2 is possible.
All engineering builds on calculus. So a student who got a C- in calculus 3, will struggle for the next 3 years, get discouraged and bail into engineering marketing. Every single class builds on the mathematics. Repeat, repeat, get a tutor, and repeat some more, for success!!! This is especially true in aerospace engineering, where its all math, from A to Z.
@brooklynlydia In fact CU is top ten in physics and top 20 in aerospace engineering, and very very strong in chemical engineering. Its not that far behind MIT in many fields, especially physics. Any student can major in physics at CU, as Arts and Sciences accepts a lot of students who are rejected by engineering. However, those same students are likely to flunk out of a CU physics degree.
Engineering takes math skills and a willingness to learn multivariable calculus and differential equations.
The classes at MIT and CU are very similar for undergraduate studies. See MIT Open Course and compare to CU syllabus , you will see thats its very very similar.
CU is much easier to get into, but many students flunk out See 4 year graduation rates at CU. And at MIT.
Neither are 100% in fact.
no matter if you end up in pre-engineering, you could still get into engineering? I want to do a bs in computer science; i havent taken ap calc or ap physics and I dont plan to; instead a bunch of other ap science and ap stat.
so basically, if you didnt take ap calc or ap physics or pre calc? you get into pre-engineering to complete those classes??? and then move to engineering?