Pre-Med at Liberal Arts School?

<p>cellardweller, I disagree with you regarding your first two points.</p>

<p>*1. Your major does not matter. *</p>

<p>This is true. Acceptance rates for humanities majors are just as high as for bio majors, if not higher.</p>

<p>There is plenty of space outside of your major for electives, which a non-science major can use to fulfill the premed requirements. If I, as a science major, took 3 English courses, 3 history courses, anthropology, psychology, Spanish, writing, stats, sociology, why can't a non-science major take an additional 4-5 science courses?</p>

<p>2. You can easily complete the requirements while in college</p>

<p>For engineering majors, this might be tough but for most premeds, it is not tough to finish the prereq's in 2 years. Most premeds at my school take gen chem and intro bio freshman year and physics/orgo sophomore year. It's not a big deal to take multiple science courses. Science majors can't graduate without taking 3 science courses/semester at some point. In med school, you will be taking the equivalent of 4-5 science courses at the same time. One would hope that you will be able to handle more than 1 science course at a time in college.</p>

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The only universities with 90%+ acceptance rates are Harvard, Princeton, and the like.

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<p>Even the statistics from these schools need to be taken with a grain of salt. Harvard and princeton do not disclose the large number of students who start as premed and then change tracks when they realize what they are getting into. Many universities with high acceptance rates also have strong screening programs and will simply not issue recommendations to the weaker applicants., which pretty much takes them out of the race. Many start and few go through the finish line. There is just no magic bullet to med school admission. You just have to be willing to grind for 3-4 years.</p>

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Acceptance rates for humanities majors are just as high as for bio majors, if not higher.

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<p>This does not account for the high selection bias among non-science majors. Most pre-meds who are not science majors end up dropping out before even taking the MCATs and do not show up on the statistics. (At Harvard the number is over two thirds). Those who do complete the pre-requisites obviously were capable. There are just not many English majors willing to take 2 to 3 science classes per semester. Biology majors do not drop out in large numbers. They have to take the classes anyway. The other issue is that non-science majors hardly ever apply to medical school as juniors, another factor not reflected in the statistics. You just need to look at the suggested schedules on the premed advising sites to see that at BEST they apply as seniors and have to take a gap year. Most decided AFTER college to pursue a medical career. </p>

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it is not tough to finish the prereq's in 2 years

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That is only true if you are a science major, otherwise virtually impossible.</p>

<p>Even the statistics from these schools need to be taken with a grain of salt. Harvard and princeton do not disclose the large number of students who start as premed and then change tracks when they realize what they are getting into. Many universities with high acceptance rates also have strong screening programs and will simply not issue recommendations to the weaker applicants., which pretty much takes them out of the race. Many start and few go through the finish line. There is just no magic bullet to med school admission. You just have to be willing to grind for 3-4 years.</p>

<p>I don't believe this to be true of top schools. For example, enrollment in Cornell's gen chem course (which every premed takes his first year) is around 1000. In the end, 470 applicants apply any given year. 90% attrition rates are normal at state schools but at top schools, the attrition rate is in the neighborhood of 50-60% which is much more reasonable.</p>

<p>I also think that people overestimate the extent to which colleges screen their applicants. I know for a fact that Cornell doesn't screen its applicants (it provides a personal interview and recommendation letter for everyone who wants to apply) and its acceptance rate is in the 75-80% range. So, it's not unreasonable to believe Princeton's 93% acceptance rate. The only top 20 college that has a formal screening policy is JHU. That would explain why its acceptance rate is Princeton-level while the quality of its students is Cornell-level. Screening is a much larger issue at LAC's since strong-arm "advising" tactics can increase your acceptance rate markedly due to the low number of applicants. For schools like Harvard or Cornell that boast 300-500 applicants a year, it's not worth the effort to pressure every weak applicant into taking time off.</p>

<p>I still don't understand why you maintain that it's impossible to finish the mandatory prereq's in 2 years. English, calc, stats and other "optional" prereq's need not be taken until junior or senior years. The only prereq's you have to take during your first two years are intro bio, physics, gen chem, and orgo because you need those courses for the MCAT. That works out to 2 science courses a semester and an additional 2-3 non-science courses (for nonscience majors). That is very manageable. Most students don't declare majors till the end of their sophomore years anyway. So, their first two years are spent taking a large amount of non-major or GE courses anyway so it's not terribly unusual to see a nonscience major take a few science courses their first two years.</p>

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so it's not terribly unusual to see a nonscience major take a few science courses their first two years

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<p>Two science courses per semester is more than just a few science classes for non-science majors! I don't know about Cornell but I know that at Harvard, few if any non-science majors take the MCATs after their sophomore year. Now that the MCATs are loaded with biochem you might as well take that too if you want to get a good score. All the science classes are heavily curved and unless you know what you are doing, your GPA gets killed in the process. Good luck to the psych major taking orgo and physics with labs at the same time! A 3.0 science GPA won't get you far, even at Harvard College where less than 10% of premeds even get into Harvard Med.</p>

<p>The typical nonscience major wouldn't be able to handle even one science course. I know psych and sociology majors that would be lost in an intro bio course. </p>

<p>However, there's a difference b/w a normal nonscience major and the nonscience majors who are premeds. Those premeds at least have some aptitude for science (otherwise, they wouldn't go into a science-oriented career like medicine). Like you said, nonscience premeds are much more self-selective. Whereas any old bio major will consider premed, 95% of English majors won't. The 5% who are premeds know that they at least have some chance of getting good grades in science courses. For THEM, taking 2 science courses is about as big a deal as a science major taking 2 science courses. In other words, due to self-selectivity, nonscience major premeds are just as good at science as science major premeds as evidenced by their competitive science GPA's and MCAT scores.</p>

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That 7:28 ratio of senior/alumni applicants is definitely not normal. Most schools have a 1:1 ratio so it would concern me that so many of its students have to take time off.

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<p>I think it's more "want to" take time off than "have to" take time off. Swarthmore is a very demanding academic program, especially for students in the Honors track who are spending this week doing written and oral exams in four different areas, each in front of a panel of visiting outside experts You'd have to be nuts to jump from that right into the med school, internship, residency sequence without a breather.</p>

<p>Also, it's hard to overemphasize how much Swarthmore science grads tilt toward research careers and PhD programs. When you look at the post-grad plans of Bio and Chem (and Physics and Engineering), it's PhD program after PhD program including combined MD/PhD programs.</p>

<p>The employment rolls for Bio and Chem majors are mostly research lab positions -- at NIH, at various medical schools, etc.</p>

<p>norcalguy:</p>

<p>My point is not that non-science majors can't get into med school. They obviously do. I just don't know any that do it on the same schedule as science majors. There is always the oddball exception of the strong science student who thinks he will get more visibility as a med school applicant as a non-science major, but that is a pretty rare case. At a place like Harvard such a candidate may find himself in a different type of trouble: not doing well in his major and get his non-science GPA to take a hit. Either way, my experience has been that non-science majors follow a very different path to med school, often an indirect one.</p>

<p>
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Also, it's hard to overemphasize how much Swarthmore science grads tilt toward research careers and PhD programs. When you look at the post-grad plans of Bio and Chem (and Physics and Engineering), it's PhD program after PhD program including combined MD/PhD programs.

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<p>That is a very good point and typical of schools such as Caltech as well. This is also why pure premeds may want to think long and hard whether a college like Swarthmore, with its excellent academics and non-preprofessional focus, is really the best place for them.</p>

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At a place like Harvard such a candidate may find himself in a different type of trouble: not doing well in his major and get his non-science GPA to take a hit.

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<p>Yep. The science geeks at Swarthmore sometimes get a reverse wake-up call in their humanities courses when they find out they have to read two novels a week on top of the two science courses with labs. Not a lot of poetry for scientist courses. Or, they find out that they really enjoy their poli sci or art history courses and say, "screw it, I'm going to take one science course per semester so I have time to take some of this other stuff and I'll just take a year off of school before med school". That's actually a pretty darn sensible approach. The whole point of a liberal arts education is to get a broad-based exposure across a range of disciplines.</p>

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typical of schools such as Caltech as well.

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<p>I don't think schools like Caltech and Swarthmore attract a lot of students who decide, beyond a shadow of a doubt as entering freshmen, that their dream in life is to join a urology practice. I just don't think that's the way these kids are wired. They are much more likely to say, "OK, I'm going to major in biology (or double major in bio/chem) and see where it leads me in four years." If it's med school, great. If it's a PhD program at Berkeley, great.</p>

<p>I personally think that a college grad should get a job and work for a year before any kind of grad school... if only as an opportunity to touch base with he real world outside of academia.</p>

<p>Why is it so hard to take 2 science classes/semester? Most engineers take 3 and an EE class is a lot harder than a physics/chemistry/biology class.<br>
For a science oriented students, finishing up the pre-med track before their junior year is easy. For everyone else, why?</p>

<p>
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My point is not that non-science majors can't get into med school. They obviously do. I just don't know any that do it on the same schedule as science majors. There is always the oddball exception of the strong science student who thinks he will get more visibility as a med school applicant as a non-science major, but that is a pretty rare case. At a place like Harvard such a candidate may find himself in a different type of trouble: not doing well in his major and get his non-science GPA to take a hit. Either way, my experience has been that non-science majors follow a very different path to med school, often an indirect one.

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<p>If your argument is that non-science majors often want to take their time with med school prereq's, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that. However, many of your points so far have centered around your opinion that it is impossible or harder for a non-science major to finish his prereq's in 2 years. That's what I don't agree with. I think you have more than enough room outside of your major to squeeze in 4 extra courses. Now, whether a non-science major actually wants to do that is another matter.</p>

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Many of your points so far have centered around your opinion that it is impossible or harder for a non-science major to finish his prereq's in 2 years

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<p>My point is that finishing the premed requirements AND getting a solid GPA AND prepping for the MCATs in 2 years is near impossible for non-science majors. </p>

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Why is it so hard to take 2 science classes/semester? Most engineers take 3 and an EE class is a lot harder than a physics/chemistry/biology class.

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<p>Actually, engineering majors have it just as hard. It is not that they can't take science classes or do well at them, they just typically don't have enough electives in the first two years to take all the bio/chem requirements at the same time. They already struggle to get the requirments in for their own major. Being a premed and and engineer is more like getting a double major. Can be done, but not in the same time span.</p>

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I don't think schools like Caltech and Swarthmore attract a lot of students who decide, beyond a shadow of a doubt as entering freshmen, that their dream in life is to join a urology practice.

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<p>Why being so condescending? Is being a physician such a lowly career? What if you want to study to be a neurosurgeon? What about MD/PhD programs which are even more compettive to get into than MD programs? </p>

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"OK, I'm going to major in biology (or double major in bio/chem) and see where it leads me in four years." If it's med school, great. If it's a PhD program at Berkeley, great.

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<p>That attitude is generally a recipe for disaster for getting in to med school. What that generally means is another two to three years beyond college in some grad program in biology where the attrition rate for PhDs candidates exceeds 50% before deciding that after all a medical career doesn't sound so bad. That is the best strategy to start practicing medicine in your mid-thirties. By that time, the grade-grubbing premeds who buckled down early on have already payed off their student loans. </p>

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I personally think that a college grad should get a job and work for a year before any kind of grad school... if only as an opportunity to touch base with he real world outside of academia.

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<p>That is great idea AFTER you have been admitted to med school and before you start, often a lousy one if you have to finish the requirements and apply to med school after graduation. Without the premed advising and your knowledge in organic chemistry and physics a distant memory, good luck with the MCATs and the recommendations.</p>

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I just don't know any that do it on the same schedule as science majors.

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I do. These are kids who are in fact gifted in science, but decide to major in something else because they know that (assuming they do get into medical school) this will be the last time in their lives that they can explore other subjects in depth. So they take the science that they need and the other courses that they want. And they do well in medical school admissions.</p>

<p>And why are you so insistent on the 2 year factor? You seem to believe that it is the "normal" route to apply to medical school as a junior, yet I know many who apply as seniors and are admitted as seniors. Where do you get your information that one must apply to medical school as a junior to begin medical school in September following graduation?</p>

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And why are you so insistent on the 2 year factor?

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<p>I refer to completing the premed requirements in two years so as to take the MCATs that summer. You still apply to med school after junior year. If you can't do that it will be hard to be ready for med school application by the end of junior year. </p>

<p>Again, show me how a reasonable schedule for an english major to take his MCATs after sophomore year.</p>

<p>That's where you and I differ. I see no need to take the MCATs after sophomore year. It's quite sufficient to take them in the spring of junior year or the summer following junior year. Some may even take them in the fall of senior year. (Just like the SATs.)</p>

<p>Additionally, one need not finish all the prerequisites to do well on the MCATs, and one certainly does not need to be a science major to do so.</p>

<p>
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Because the depth of knowledge you will be expected to demonstrate is limited, **it is usually not advantageous to enroll in advanced science courses for the purpose of improving your performance on the MCAT exam. **Well-designed introductory courses in biology, chemistry, and physics with laboratory sessions that feature a variety of experiences should enable you to acquire this knowledge. <a href="emphasis%20added">/quote</a>
AAMC:</a> MCAT: How can I prepare for the MCAT science sections?</p>

<p>But to answer your question, taking a school whose schedule I know (University of Rochester)
Freshman year (4 classes/semester): 2 semesters bio, 2 semesters chem, 2 semesters English, 1 semester freshman writing (required), 1 "free" class
Sophomore year (4 classes/semester): 2 semesters organic chem, 2 semesters calculus, 2 semesters physics, 2 English classes</p>

<p>Junior & Senior years: remainder of English classes, + whatever classes are needed to make up for the social sciences distribution requirement.</p>

<p>I also know many students, including those who intend to major in science, who take organic chemistry over the summer between freshman and sophomore years.</p>

<p>Quite doable, again for kids who start out gifted in science anyway.</p>

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Again, show me how a reasonable schedule for an english major to take his MCATs after sophomore year.

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<p>Easy. Here are the requirements for an English major at Cornell:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.arts.cornell.edu/english/_lib/pdf/undr_english_major.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.arts.cornell.edu/english/_lib/pdf/undr_english_major.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Basically, all you need is 10 English courses (40 credits). That's it. 10 courses spread out over 8 semesters come out to 1.25 English courses a semester. Do you know how many credits you need to graduate? 120. That means you have 80 credits of electives. 80. The four med school prereq's come out to roughly 16 of those credits. That's what I was saying. It's rare for any major to involve more than 60 credits and yet you need 100-120 credits to graduate from most schools. So, there is more than enough elective room to take science courses. In fact, students in the College of Arts and Sciences at Cornell MUST take 4 science/math courses regardless of their major anyway. Most non-science majors take bio for non-majors or the physics of underwater basketweaving. For non-science premeds, instead of taking those fluff courses, you simply take your prereq's. </p>

<p>Most kids take 4-5 courses/semester at Cornell. If you take two prereq's per semester along with your 1.25 English courses, you still have room for an additional English course or elective. That will allow you to be prepared to take the MCAT at the end of your sophomore year. How in the world is this not doable?</p>

<p>Due to the fact that many non-science courses have no prereq's, I would argue that it's actually easier to complete a premed track as a non-science major. In many upper level science courses you simply can't take the courses w/o having taking the prereq's. This gives science majors a lot less flexibility, not to mention science majors typically involve more credits and more requirements than non-science majors anyway. On the other hand, I can jump into a 400-level English or history course w/o needing any other English or history course. They're basically stand alone courses. This means there's no timeline for taking these courses whereas if I want to be taking 400-level bio courses as a junior and senior, I have to take 100 and 200 level bio courses as a fresman and sophomore.</p>

<p>What this allows you to do is basically stockpile your English courses into the last two years and focus on knocking out your med school prereq's in your first two years. But, as I noted above, you can have plenty of room to be completing both your major requirements and med school requirements at the same time.</p>