Pre-Med at Liberal Arts School?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Here are the requirements for the English major at Harvard:</p>

<p>FAS</a> Handbook for Students: Chapter 3: Fields of Concentration</p>

<p>I assume a "half-course" is the equivalent of a semester-long course. That's 12 courses to complete the English major. If a college student takes 30+ courses during his college career, why would he not be able to fit in 12 English courses and 4 science courses?</p>

<p>Outside of the prereq's, the bio major at Cornell involves an additional 13 courses. That's in addition to intro bio, gen chem, physics, and orgo. You can see that I have little sympathy for a non-science major who whines about having to take 5 science courses in 8 semesters when the average science major has to take around 18 science courses in 8 semesters.</p>

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<p>I am an MD. I graduated with a BA at a small southern LAC. I was a combined bio/chem major. I took organic Junior year, had no trouble taking MCAT's that spring, and had multiple accemtances to med school right out of college. It can be done. To me, it was not a killer schedule. It was, however, 20+ years ago.</p>

<p>Many institutuions have a premed advising committee that helps students prepare and apply, students of ANY manjor. They steer the nonscience majors accordingly so that they have the prereq's. Institutions who have a formal premed advising committee usually also have a way to distinguish those students who are applying to med school with the full backing of the committee, and those who are told they can apply, but the committee does not recommend it. It is only that first group from which they then draw their "100%" statistics of acceptance. And only those students that made it to senior year still saying they are "pre-med." There may have been 150students as freshman calling themselves premed, 80 left by sophomore year, 20 who still said so after receiving their final grade in organic, and 10 who had the full backing of the committee. If 8 are accepted it looks like 80% success rate. There were another 10 who applied without full backing and 0-1 who got in maybe to an offshore school. They weren't counted. The numbers are not often what they seem. In this example, 8-9 got in out of 20 who applied. And some years, only 3-4 of 20 got in, 3-4 out of 150 to even 200 that started out as pre-med.</p>

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<p>I'm not sure what school you are referring to but top schools simply don't have the kind of attrition rates that you are stating.</p>

<p>Harvard has a graduating class of roughly 1600 and, last year, produced 320 medical school applicants. If you assume that 1 out of every 3 freshmen start out premed, that means 320 out of the 550 premed freshmen would eventually go on to apply to med school (whether as seniors or as alumni). I like those odds. </p>

<p>It is also important to remember that not everyone drops out of premed for academic reasons. Maybe at a state school this is more prevelant but at top schools (which are often grade inflated), grades are usually not the problem. People drop out of premed simply because they wisen up and realize medicine isn't a lucrative career, not with decreasing salaries, rising malpractice premiums, and a lot of uncertainty in the future (with the possible onset of universal healthcare). Regardless of the reason, the pre-application attrition rate appears to be 40-60% at most top schools, which I think is very reasonable. Remember, college freshmen are notriously fickle. It is not unsual to see them switch out of majors, regardless of whether it's premed or anthropology or sociology.</p>

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<p>
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Why being so condescending? Is being a physician such a lowly career? What if you want to study to be a neurosurgeon? What about MD/PhD programs which are even more compettive to get into than MD programs?

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<p>It wasn't condescending. I don't think Caltech and Swarthmore attract a lot of students who, at age 17, have decided beyond a shadow of a doubt that their dream is to be a PhD bio researcher at Cal-Berkeley, either.</p>

<p>Rather, I think the more common mindset would be to dive into a Bio major full-tilt boogie as a freshman (with an eye on the pre-med requirements) and evaluate as college unfolds. I don't think anyone takes the MCAT and applies to med school before or after freshman year!</p>

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<p>
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People drop out of premed simply because they wisen up and realize medicine isn't a lucrative career, not with decreasing salaries, rising malpractice premiums, and a lot of uncertainty in the future (with the possible onset of universal healthcare).

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<p>I think there's an increasing calculation about the cost of a medical education viz-a-viz the uncertain payoff. Many students at top schools have MDs in the family and are seeing first-hand the changing financial calculations for a medical private practice.</p>

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<p>Also remember that most 17 year olds have no idea of the vast number of subjects that there are to study. They've never been exposed to archaeology, astronomy, zoology, philosophy, anthropology, and a whole host of other things that are not taught (or only taught tangentially) in high school. They want to become doctors by default. </p>

<p>Once they're in college, they may find themselves excited about things they've never known, and pursue interests in any number of different fields.</p>

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<p>
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Once they're in college, they may find themselves excited about things they've never known, and pursue interests in any number of different fields.

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<p>Or...they discover that they just don't have a lot of aptitude for college level science and (particularly) math. There's nothing more depressing that a student stubbornly trying to grind out a science major when the natural aptitude or love of the subject just isn't there.</p>

<p>My daughter had always breezed thru science and math. Got to Swarthmore and took the Physics major freshman seminar on Special Relativity. Did fine in it, enjoyed the course very much, but looked around at the "Physics geeks" just beaming with joy like pigs wallowing in a mud hole and knew, then and there, that she didn't feel the love for a Physics major. IMO, that's a good thing.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Harvard has a graduating class of roughly 1600 and, last year, produced 320 medical school applicants. If you assume that 1 out of every 3 freshmen start out premed, that means 320 out of the 550 premed freshmen would eventually go on to apply to med school (whether as seniors or as alumni). I like those odds.

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<p>I don't see the odds as particularly encouraging. Using your 550 initial premed number and 320 eventual applicants, and the further fact that less than 50% of applicants (according to the Crimson) are current students as opposed to alumni and a further 50/50 breakdown between junior and senior applicants you have only 80/550 or 14% actually ready within 3 years and another 14% ready after 4 years and a greater than 70% dropout rate.
The 50%+ alumni applicants are spread over many class years and can't be considered part of the initial premed pool if they never even applied while in college. </p>

<p>If more than 70% of declared premeds at Harvard fail to apply while in college, what does that tell you about other top colleges.</p>

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<p>i didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been said, but just because you cannot put "premed" down as your major, does not mean you cannot do premed. You can major in Bio or Chem or whatever and take the classes that you need. Lots of people do this.</p>

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<p>There are no such thing as "junior" applicants. The earliest you can apply is senior year. So, essentially, you have 50% being "traditional" applicants that apply senior year for matriculation in the fall after graduation. The other 50% are alumni applicants. </p>

<p>I'm not sure why you find this discouraging. First of all, students drop out of majors all the time. 75% of college students change majors at some point. In light of that, is the attrition rate in premed really higher than the attrition rate of English majors or anthropology majors? I don't see a student who changes his mind as "discouragement" but rather "enlightenment" since he has found a career he likes more. </p>

<p>The only reason people make a big fuss over the attrition rate of premeds and not English or sociology or physics is that premed only tends to lose students. In other words, you can transfer into English or sociology in your junior year and still complete the major with ease whereas due to the competitiveness of med school admissions, it's really hard to start premed as a junior or even a sophomore. So, whereas other majors could be losing students at the same rate as premed, you can't tell because those majors gain students who transferred from other majors. Essentially, an equilibrium is formed. This doesn't happen with premed. It only loses students. Hence, everyone gets their panties in a bunch about its attrition rate when just as many students are probably changing their minds about engineering or math or history. </p>

<p>I would love to see a statistic about what % of freshmen history majors actually end up graduating with a degree in history. My guess is that it won't be much higher than the 60% that stay with premed and end up applying to med school. So, what's so notable about the attrition rate in premed? Why aren't we crying about the 75% of ex-history majors who changed majors? Or the 75% of freshmen English majors who never graduated with a degree in English?</p>

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<p>Norcalguy:</p>

<p>Since you like to bring up the Cornell numbers let us look at them in more detail.</p>

<p>Cornell latest published numbers discloses that of a total of 208 first time applicants as juniors or seniors who took advantage of premed advising, 142 or 68% were admitted. (The admitted percentages for those not receiving any premed advising is not provided but certainly much lower). </p>

<p>Using your numbers of one in three students starting as premeds or an initial pool of about 1,000, that means less than 10% actually apply within 3 years and another 10% within 4 years. Among these around 2 out of 3 will be admitted. So starting as a premed at Cornell you have about a 14% chance of getting admitted to med school while in college when your chances are the highest. I would predict your chances starting as a non-science major are much lower as most will drop out by the time they get to orgo.</p>

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<p>
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There are no such thing as "junior" applicants. The earliest you can apply is senior year.

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</p>

<p>Not true. Colleges classify applicants by the date at which they register with their respective Health Career Evaluation Committees which issue the evaluative letters required by the medical schools. This is done either the spring of your junior year (for enrollment upon graduation) or the spring of your senior year (and take a gap year). All colleges including Cornell classify these applicants as college applicants not as alumni applicants. Alumni applicants are those that start the application process after graduation. At Cornell the published first time college applicant/admitted numbers are about 2/3 junior applicants and 1/3 senior applicants.
Premed</a> Profiles for Cornell Students</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Norcalguy:</p>

<p>Since you like to bring up the Cornell numbers let us look at them in more detail.</p>

<p>Cornell latest published numbers discloses that of a total of 208 first time applicants as juniors or seniors who took advantage of premed advising, 142 or 68% were admitted. (The admitted percentages for those not receiving any premed advising is not provided but certainly much lower).</p>

<p>Using your numbers of one in three students starting as premeds that means less than 10% actually apply within 3 years and another 10% within 4 years. Among these around 2 out of 3 will be admitted. So starting as a premed at Cornell you have about a 14% chance of getting admitted to med school while in college where your chances are the highest. I would venture to guess your chances starting as a non-science major are much lower as most will drop out by the time they get to orgo.

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<p>Let's go over this again:
1. You either have senior applicants (the ones who are "on track" and alumni applicants). Like I said, 200 senior applicants, 470 total applicants. The roughly 1:1 ratio you see at most schools.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Cornell's numbers took a slight dip last year. But, if you look at the previous few years, you will see that it's acceptance rate is 75-80% typically. About what you expect for a school of its caliber (for reference, Duke is at 85%, Amherst at 79%, Princeton at 93%, Harvard at 90%+).</p></li>
<li><p>What is this "premed advising" you speak of? The Cornell data is very complete. Everyone who applies to med school registers with the committee, pays the $190, receives a personal interview, and gets a letter of rec. Whether they decide to consult the premed advisors in their own time is up to them. The Cornell data essentially includes every senior who applied in that year, minus the URM's. </p></li>
<li><p>1000 premeds start. 470 eventually apply to med school. If we assume a 75% acceptance rate, then roughly 1/3 of freshman premeds end up becoming doctors. THAT IS VERY GOOD.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I still don't understand why you see a) people who change their minds about medicine and b) people who took time off as signs of weakness. People change their minds about their careers all the time, especially college students. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with grades. Medicine is a profession going downhill right now. People are going to realize that sooner or later.</p>

<p>Secondly, people also take time off for various reasons, again, not just because of academics. Some of the weakest students but also some of the strongest students take time off (to complete Rhodes, Marshall, Fulbright Fellowships, or Peace Corps, etc.). I personally had a 3.9 w/ a 37 MCAT but I took a year off to do a fellowship at the NIH cuz I wanted to. </p>

<p>You are looking at these two things as signs of weakness when you need to realize that it's an amazing thing that people are pursuing their true interests (whether it's medicine or not). </p>

<p>BTW: The Cornell data only includes allopathic schools and does not count all of the applicants who got into Carib or DO schools, which considering the physician shortage, are beginning to comprise a larger and larger proportion of medical students.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Not true. Colleges classify applicants at the time they register with their respective Health Career Evaluation Committees which issue the evaluative letters required by the medical schools. This is done either the spring of your junior year (for enrollment upon graduation) or the spring of your senior year (and take a gap year). All colleges including Cornell classify these applicants as college applicants not as alumni. Alumni applicants are those that start the application process after graduation. At Cornell the numbers are about 2/3 junior applicants and 1/3 senior applicants.

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<p>My point being, you are confusing the 1:1 student: alumni ratio. The 50% of applicants who are students are "junior" students (or whatever you are calling them). The 50% alumni includes the "senior" students. You can see that 208 out of Cornell's 473 were "junior" applicants. That means 20.8% (assuming the 1 out of 3 premed ratio) were "junior" applicants, not the "under 10%" that you calculated. That's what I was pointing out. Cornell does not include "senior" applicants in those 208 people. I'm a senior applicant and the data for 2007 came out way before the end of this previous application cycle (so there's no way I can be included).</p>

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<p>
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Using your numbers of one in three students starting as premeds or an initial pool of about 1,000, that means less than 10% actually apply within 3 years

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<p>^This is what I was referencing; sorry for the confusion. All 208 students initiated the application process as juniors and applied as seniors. Hence, the correct % applying within 3 years is 20.8%. </p>

<p>Those (like me) who initiated the process as a senior and applied as an alumnus aren't counted. Like I said, a typical college will have 50% junior applicants and 50% senior/alumni applicant (using your lingo). Cornell is no different with 46% junior applicants and 64% being senior/alumni applicants. Swarthmore with its 7:28 ratio is unusual.</p>

<p>Edit: I do see how Cornell's chart titles makes that confusing.</p>

<p>My point being, we can dissect percentages all we want, but without knowing the reasons for dropping out of premed, we can't come to any kind of conclusion. I personally don't think the proportion of students changing their minds in premed is any different from the proportion of students changing their minds in any other major.</p>

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<p>From the Cornell web site:

[quote]
Nearly a third of Cornell students apply to medical school at the end of the senior year and have a year to work, study, volunteer, or do some other activity before starting medical school. And dozens apply as alumni after they have been out of college for a year or more.

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<p>This confirms my statement that the 1/3 students who apply in the spring of their senior year are separate from the alumni applicants which are the students out of college for more than a year. </p>

<p>The 208 applicants in 2007 clearly include both groups of students and therefore only 137 students actually apply to enroll immediately upon graduation and the remaining 69 apply at the end of their senior year and take a gap year. There is no confusion about what the data shows. </p>

<p>The admission data allows us to infer what it takes to get admitted to med school: below a combined 30 MCAT/3.4 GPA, admission chances drop precipitously from about 70% to less than half that. Of the total junior/senior 208 number less than 130 applicants fit the profile of the "well-qualified" or barely more than 60% of the total applicant pool. There is good reason to assume that among these 130 "well-qualified" applicants a greater proportion are those who had to wait like you to apply in the spring of their senior year to have a reasonable GPA. So that leaves less than 65 well-qualified applicants ready by the spring of their junior year. The data does not show what percentrage of those 65 students are non-science majors, but whatever the number it can't very large. So while it is not litterally impossible for a non-science major to be ready in the spring of senior year with ALL requirements in order to to get the committee letter and be well prepared so as to have a higher than national average chance of admission, the actual probability of that happening is extremely low. </p>

<p>You can get a feel of how hard that actually is by reading the lengthy warnings on the Cornell premed advising site, with all the stories of students with low science GPAs who have to defer their application to senior year and often beyond.</p>

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<p>im sorry. what does LAC stand for?</p>

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<p>LAC = Liberal arts college</p>