Pre-med at UChicago!

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
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<p>It is really hard to understand UofC students sometimes. A lot of students simply want to challenge themselves. Many of the premeds I know take classes like linear algebra because they think it will “help them in medical school” even though that is simply not true. To sum up, a lot of them are just masochists, and I do not really understand the rationale behind it. It has to do a lot with the advising here I think. I went in my advising meeting wanting to take introductory chemistry, 120 physics and regular biology and walked out enrolled in honors chemistry, honors physics and AP 5 (accelerated) biology. They really want students to “challenge themselves” even though they know fully well that “challenging themselves” will undermine their chance of getting accepted to professional schools.</p>

<p>What you are missing in your analysis is how “awful” (from a pre-med perspective at least) the advising here is. I wanted to take a fourth-year Spanish course as a fifth class and the first thing my advisor asked was: “are you trying to boost your GPA”. Sure. I am pretty darn good at Spanish, but I wanted to take the Spanish class to solidify my Spanish, not to raise my GPA. My advisor sounded as if boosting GPA is sinister… (And he assumed that taking a fifth class is a fabulous way to raise my GPA, which did not make any sense at all.)</p>

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<p>Yah I do. I know people with that kind of GPA at our peer institutions, and all of whom got accepted to the very top medical schools.</p>

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<p>DivineComedy:</p>

<p>You bring up a great point, and one that resonates with my cohorts from a decade ago at U of C. I felt that many of my peers felt really guilty for not “challenging” themselves and taking the very hardest classes possible. So, I know pre-meds who pushed to take math 160, top-level physics classes, and difficult language classes (i.e. intensive immersion into mandarin) for the sake of “challenging” themselves. To me, sometimes the challenge looked more like a self-imposed punishment. </p>

<p>Also, advisers seem to push taking challenging classes. That’s well and good, but what I never quite understood is, the advisers’ advice is generally OPTIONAL. The curriculum requirements are pretty cut and dry, and, as a young adult, you have considerable autonomy over your classes. Especially now with so much information transparency out there, it’s pretty easy to make the best choices without paying much attention to some officious adviser. </p>

<p>Obviously, students need to balance their academic development and growth with the rote requirements of getting into med school. At Chicago, too many students fail to find that correct balance, for whatever reason. Chicago students need to be more aware of the consequences of poor course planning, and also realize that Chicago offers opportunities for considerable grade boosting. </p>

<p>Perhaps at Taking the Next Step, Chicago should host a forum entitled “Extinguished Med School Dreams” featuring the dumbest smart kids in the room - those who took punishing courses in mandarin or upper-level math or linguistics, and, upon finishing those classes, found that the courses were not rewarding, and bombed their realistic hopes of getting into medical school. Now, years later, they find themselves with a $50/k a year research job paying down loans for an MPH and wishing they made better decisions as an undergraduate.</p>

<p>Yes, challenging courses can lead to tremendous intellectual growth and satisfaction. There is, however, a darker side to this, and students should be aware of it.</p>

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<p>Hey all,</p>

<p>When i checked this thread earlier today i was surprised by the amount of discussion here. I made my post about a week ago and thought there might be a couple of replies at most (but was somewhat expecting 0). Let me reiterate that I really have no vested interest here. It doesn’t make me any better/worse off if the college does better or worse in medical school admissions. I was just very surprised at some of the data I heard/saw being discussed and thought high school seniors considering medicine as a career should be aware of this issue when making a college choice.</p>

<p>A lot of the discussion seems to center around why UChicago is performing poorly both on the MCAT and in admissions in general. Regarding the MCAT…To be honest, I have no idea why students do poorly on the MCAT. I can tell you that the CCIHP office blames it on the fact that UChicago, through its core curriculum, encourages students to be critical and independent thinkers and that this somehow reduces their performance on standardized tests. Personally, i think thats a load of garbage and is an attempt at making a nice-sounding excuse to cover up the fact that they (the college in general) aren’t doing their jobs. Other than the fact that i don’t believe the CCIHP’s office explanation, I have no other insight to offer here. UChicago sutdents had to do well on standardized tests to get into UC, and they should do well on them when they take the MCAT, but they don’t.</p>

<p>Others have mentioned grades and advising. My guess is that both of these also contribute to worse outcomes. Whether its a grading system void of inflation (when compared to peer schools) or a grading system which fails to do justice to top students i don’t know. I can also say that I have heard many alumni and current students complain about the CCIHP office. My impression is that working with them is a complete nightmare.</p>

<p>Regardless of the why, it remains objectively true that performance on the MCAT and overall in admissions is worse than peer institutions. I realize I’m asking you to take my word on it and if you don’t want to believe me, that is fine. I would just recommend that any high school seniors reading this thread ask the right questions to the pre-med offices to the schools that they are applying – and don’t settle for any bogus smoke and mirrors answers. and when you ask these questions, be sure to ask what percentage of students that want to go into medicine are actually allowed to apply.</p>

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<p>Also, with regards to motherbear’s post about MD/PhDs and funding.</p>

<p>Yes, I am fully funded. Most MD/PhDs complete the first two years of medical school, then leave the medical school to complete their PhD, and then return for the last two years of medical school. Although getting a PhD isn’t cake walk, compared to the time and intensity of medical school it is not nearly as tough. As a result, it is not difficult to get some additional income through teaching. Why not make a little more money and improve your resume at the same time (more teaching experience is always a bonus when going into academic medicine). This is why many MD/PhDs will also TA more classes than is required for their degree - because they are getting paid by the university (and in addition to their stipend) for anything beyond their requirements!!!</p>

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<p>Siege1214 - Do you have any hard stats? Since you work with CCIHP, do you know how many Chicago students are getting into U of C, Cornell, Duke etc. medical schools? Do you know what the avg. MCAT score is from Chicago, and the % of U of C applicants in the past year that were accepted into med school? </p>

<p>Also, my takeaway from the thread is this: The advising at CCIHP is worthless, and the push to take the “hardest classes possible” is a myth. Getting into med school requires a high GPA and a high MCAT, and here’s the path at Chicago:</p>

<p>1.) Don’t listen to CCIHP and the advisers telling you to take overly challenging classes. </p>

<p>2.) Chicago grade inflates very, very liberally in general science courses and in many courses overall, so choose your courses carefully, and take advantage of the grade inflation.</p>

<p>3.) Take an official MCAT course (not the one CCIHP offers), and only take the exam when you’re ready. Get a high MCAT score. Chicago students are among the highest performing on the SAT (avg. SAT range is 1400-1540 - the highest in the midwest), so they should do well on the MCAT. </p>

<p>Siege1214 - am I missing anything? All this thread has showed me is that Chicago actually has a GOOD atmosphere for pre-meds (lots of grade inflation in gen science classes). If students can avoid the toxic advising, they are probably better positioned than their peers at other schools.</p>

<p>Again, I’d appreciate hearing any feedback on this. My final question, Siege1214, is, as Chicago’s selectivity is improving so quickly, do you think the situation will improve in 3-4 years? The incoming classes are pretty ridiculously strong and getting stronger, so I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this.</p>

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<p>WOW! I thought that this thread was dead already. But, it is really bustling now, which is a very good thing. These discussion are proving to be really helpful. Please continue feeding it with new information and discussions. Inputs from the current students and recent graduates would be highly advantageous.</p>

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<p>I’ll chime in with what I’ve seen as a second-year pre-med.</p>

<p>Divine Comedy is right on the money with the curving of the intro science classes - B/B+ is what they are doing. While I’m not sure how much of a weed-out O-Chem is (took it over the summer at Harvard), I will have to say I thought a lot of people dropped Gen Chem after second quarter - maybe due to the fact that it was quantum and we had a terrible professor. Also, the advising can really suck - I’m lucky to have a good adviser who has been on my case about taking a year off, not doing everything at once, encouraging me to do a minor instead of double major, etc., but I don’t think that’s the case for everyone. I also just hate CCIHP from all the interactions (unnecessarily negative attitude) I have had with them and don’t look forward to having to deal with them even more. </p>

<p>DC’s also right about there being masochistic pre-meds, probably as many as the gunner ones. But honestly, it’s difficult enough when you aren’t expecting a class to be hard, so I don’t know why they are bringing it upon themselves. You have to choose core classes well, which I definitely did not do this quarter. But overall, I think pre-meds have to be very aggressive about choosing classes, because there is absolutely no point in taking a challenging class if you cannot succeed in it.</p>

<p>As for the MCAT, I’m not sure why UChicago students don’t do as well. I haven’t heard any of the fourth-years/graduated students who are currently applying complaining about that… Is it because the courses aren’t taught with the test in mind at all? The O-Chem class at Harvard would sometimes bring up stuff just because it was on the MCAT, but I thought that was due to it being taught over the summer (ie, almost everyone taking it was pre-med)</p>

<p>I’m also going to bring up the bio department’s shenanigans, because I’m getting really frustrated with them as a major. They changed the introductory sequences for majors (this was the first year), and variant B was SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult than variant A, and they had told us that the difference was that B was more computation-based… That was not the case at all. The grading scheme also made no sense: 70-85 is a B, 85-100 is an A, which sounds generous, but +'s weren’t given out, and the average on the midterm was about 60%… Compare that to the grading at the summer class I took, which had the same scheme, but test averages in the mid-70s. </p>

<p>Furthermore, the bio department introduced a 6-quarter sequence for non-bio major pre-meds, which sounds like it’s a benefit, but if you do decide to switch to a bio major because it’d be less stressful or you change your mind, all of those classes don’t count. They also don’t post evaluations on the regular website, and I’m still in contact with people to try and figure out where the evaluations are. To top it all off, I keep getting the vibe that the department does not like pre-meds (re: the many comments made in the intro class last spring)… which is just frustrating to have to deal with, and might lead to the “I need to prove myself” attitude.</p>

<p>All of this being said, I think it’s definitely possible to do well as a pre-med, it’s just that you might run into more than a few roadblocks and need to pick classes really well, and that’s challenging when the advising isn’t always stellar.</p>

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<p>Wow. Lucky I suck at school and didn’t get accepted, or else my parents (both alumni) would have forced me into this! Hahaha! I knew those classes suck, my aunt even told me she couldn’t get into medical school even after taking it 3 times and independently studies. so she just became a pharmacist. Yes, she was an amazing test taker and one of the best graduates from a private high school in chicago (lane tech). Wheww!</p>

<p>Also…
If you have any questions for me, I can ask my parents. They are from like class of 1960ish. Both premed. Although they will give you a biased answer and say its great. Seriously, I’m not sure why they love that place. Great setting and all but really, gotta party it up ya know?</p>

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<p>Zakuropanda - thanks for the response! Sounds like CCIHP really, really needs to get their act in gear.</p>

<p>I don’t get the negativity these advisers have at all. They’re privileged to work with some of the best students in America.</p>

<p>From talking to folks at Harvard, there is an attitude there that is kind of like “I got into Harvard, of course I can get into medical school!” </p>

<p>Chicago really needs to adopt a similar approach, especially for its pre-meds. With an acceptance rate that is at least approaching the ball park of some medical schools, Chicago students should have the attitude that, if they’re good enough to get into Chicago, they’re good enough to get into medical school.</p>

<p>Put another way, and I’m surprised I’d say this, Chicago students might be well served to generate that vaguely aristocratic, confident air that certain Harvard/Yale types have. I’m not talking about the wonky elitism Chicago students have had for generations ("we’re the best academic school in the world! A t-shirt saying, “At Harvard, I would’ve gotten an A” etc.), but rather that actual arrogant/confident streak of “I got into UChicago, so I’m good enough to get in wherever else I want too.”</p>

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<p>A prospective pre-med, and accepted to Chicago, this thread is enlightening. Is it the general consensus that I should look elsewhere if I want to do pre-med?</p>

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<p>It is really up to you. It’s definitely doable. I have a 3.80 and I don’t think I would’ve done this well at other schools (which weed students out more effectively). Put it this way: at other schools, either you do extraordinarily well and get into top medical schools or you do very poorly and get weeded out. Very few actually fall in the middle, or at least a smaller portion falls in the middle in comparison with UChicago’s pre-med student body. I have not heard a single pre-med UofC student with GPA below 3.0. (Getting <3.0 is a lot more common at other schools, and those students won’t even bother applying for medical school.) Keep in mind that the science classes at UChicago are curved a lot more leniently than the same intro science classes at most of its peer institutions.</p>

<p>I do not think UChicago students perform worse on MCAT than those at other institutions. I have not heard any complaints from upperclassmen about the exam, and everyone I know who took the exam did extraordinarily well. The scores I heard were 36, 38, 38, 39, and 41.</p>

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<p>@dblazer: Another way of putting it is that if you choose to come here, it should be in spite of being pre-med. So if everything else UChicago has to offer doesn’t appeal to you in particular, it’s probably not the best choice (which would be the case anyway, but even more so if you’re pre-med).</p>

<p>@Cue7: I agree entirely about the attitude factor. There is a very beaten down mentality that a lot of pre-meds here take, as though they aren’t good enough to get in, or aren’t as valued as those who are going into PhD programs or whatever, which needs to change. I rarely tell anyone that I’m pre-med unless I know them pretty well, because the “pre-med” label leads to judging most of the time. It was honestly pretty shocking to me that undergrads from other institutions would openly, proudly say they were pre-med, which I have almost never seen at Chicago.</p>

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<p>Zakuropanda - oh absolutely - it’s amazing how much the Chicago culture reveres the PhD. When I was at Chicago, the PhD was revered above all else. </p>

<p>That, actually, was my chief complaint about the U of C - the education was great, but I grew tired of all the reverence for the PhD. In many ways, Chicago used to be an incubator for future academics, and it felt a bit like a pre-PhD program. Expressing interest in law or medicine (at least, in practicing, and not teaching it) was frowned upon, and the folks interested in business would sheepishly don suits before being courted by Wall Street. </p>

<p>It sounds like that attitude is still there, at least amongst faculty and the advising staff. Despite this, I think the situation would improve if students took more pride in what they want to do, and gradually force some cultural change. There is no shame in saying you want to apply your critical thinking skills as a doctor or lawyer, rather than a scientist or philosopher. </p>

<p>If students at Chicago changed their tune and were more brazen in their dealings with the advisers, that may help matters, especially because it sounds like the actual grading has softened to make the culture much more humane.</p>

<p>My advice to pre-meds would be to come to Chicago, and to pursue your goals boldly and smartly.</p>

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<p>I think this depends very much on where “elsewhere” is. If you get into Harvard, go there. (Cue7 is absolutely right about the Harvard attitude–and it is not just limited to med school.) If your “elsewhere” is a large public where the chemistry profs feel they have a moral obligation to weed out premeds, and I personally know several chemistry profs who feel this way, then you would probably be better off at Chicago. </p>

<p>Do your homework on your actual choices, and don’t believe everything you read on CC. Use the discussion to give you things to think and ask about.</p>

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<p>Hey I just saw this thread
I am also a current student and I think that UChicago really did change a lot for students who are thinking of going to a professional school like med school later. It is true that grades are definitely inflated for some of the courses (not all…it all depends on the professor). Yes variant B seems to be a bit harder than variant A but it is less memorization and deals with various themes. For me, orgo was okay but not too terribly difficult. Again, it really depends on what you are doing. I am double majoring also…yes this can hurt my gpa but I really like what I am learning. anyway. my gpa in the school is doing extremely great and I am happy with the school. </p>

<p>CCIHP…I don’t really work with them intimately but I think that they have good intentions. Again, I think you are the ones making the decisions. I have a lot of friends who have awesome GPA and are able to study abroad thinking of going to medical schools. BUT for some reason, they want to take a year or two off and do something really amazing for those gap years. I am starting to think about taking a few years before applying to medical school as well. I hope that potential premeds should still consider the school. It has so many opportunities for students as long as you work to get them!!! </p>

<p>I hope this helps. if you have any question, just let me know!</p>

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<p>The only intro science classes I know of that sometimes curve to a B+ are the honors sequences. All of the regular science courses I’ve had curved to a B, which isn’t significantly different from curving to a B-. I was in the variant A bio course last quarter and the average on the midterm was 77 and that was curved to a B. 11% of the class got a C or C- and 18% got a D or lower. Almost 1/3 students received a C or lower on that test, I think that’s fair grading and will discourage enough pre-meds. And Divine Comedy, you said you’ve never met a pre-med with a GPA below a 3.0? You must have a small sample size because I know quite a few. Maybe you haven’t encountered many because most sub-3.0 pre-meds abandon their med school hopes once they fall below the 3.0 line, but I assure you that there are plenty of people getting Cs in science courses.</p>

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<p>I’m wondering, is UChicago pre-med significantly harder than pre-med at all of the following schools?:</p>

<p>UPenn, Duke, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Brown, Cornell, Amherst</p>

<p>I was admitted to UChicago and admire its academic image, so I would like to take some schools off my RD application list, but I’m wary of limiting my pre-med options. I would like to strike out Northwestern and Cornell, specifically. The list looks top-heavy since I already applied to all my safeties and about half of my matches.</p>

<p>An additional note. I don’t need to go to a top med school. I’m just afraid of having to either a) give up my dream of becoming a doctor, or b) attend a foreign/unaccredited/terrible medical school; due to a bad GPA.</p>

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<p>Here’s the data for different medical schools and you be the judge Calexico.</p>

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<p>WashU Med Historically
[Who</a> Chooses WU](<a href=“http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx]Who”>http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx)</p>

<p>Duke: 79
Northwestern: 48
Cornell: 46
Brown: 38
Penn: 36
Dartmouth: 28
Chicago: 20
Amherst: 11</p>

<p>Johns Hopkins Medicine 2009-10
<a href=“http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/bin/u/p/SOMCatalog0910.pdf[/url]”>http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/bin/u/p/SOMCatalog0910.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Cornell: 16
Duke: 14
Penn: 12
Dartmouth: 9
University of Chicago: 8
Brown: 7
Northwestern: 5
Amherst: 2</p>

<p>Vanderbilt Medicine 2006-10
<a href=“https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/admissions/undergraduate-schools-represented[/url]”>https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/admissions/undergraduate-schools-represented&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Duke: 15
Penn: 12
Dartmouth: 8
Cornell: 7
Brown: 6
Northwestern: 3
University of Chicago: 3
Amherst: 0</p>

<p>Case Western Entering Class of 2011
[CWRU</a> School of Medicine | Office of Admissions](<a href=“http://casemed.case.edu/admissions/profile.cfm]CWRU”>http://casemed.case.edu/admissions/profile.cfm)</p>

<p>Cornell: 6
Northwestern: 5
Duke: 3
Dartmouth: 2
Penn: 2
Amherst: <2
Chicago: <2</p>

<p>Ohio State Medicine Entering Class
<a href=“http://medicine.osu.edu/students/admissions/Documents/classprofile.pdf[/url]”>http://medicine.osu.edu/students/admissions/Documents/classprofile.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Duke: 12
Northwestern: 6
Dartmouth: 2
Penn: 2
Chicago: 1
Brown: 0
Amherst: 0</p>

<p>Michigan Medicine Currently Enrolled Students
[University</a> of Michigan Medical School :: Admissions :: Interview Day](<a href=“http://med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/apply/profiles.html]University”>http://med.umich.edu/medschool/admissions/apply/profiles.html)</p>

<p>Duke: 13-19 (13 confirmed)
Dartmouth: 9-18 (9 confirmed)
Brown: 4-16 (4 confirmed)
Cornell: 4-16 (4 confirmed)
Penn: 0-12 (0 confirmed)
Amherst: 0-12 (0 confirmed)
Chicago: 0-12 (0 confirmed)</p>

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<p>^that was useful information…thanks</p>

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<p>Thanks. That Duke -> WashU number is scary!</p>